Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

FC

not only they have comited treason against the island of cyprus but they continue to do so today. greek speaking and turkish speaking soo called cypriot rulers

I'm not sure if you can commit treason against an island.

If you are talking of them committing treason against the 1960 Constitution, then if the A Plan is on the "autopsy table" (Lillikas?) the Constitution has been in the cemetary for the past 30 years.

[zan]

Askimwos
You have started this thread as an attack on my thoughts and why I think the way I do and I will have to admit that I have not done a very good job of saying what I have to say lately. My anger at the attacks on me and VP and anyone that dares say anything but what the pack wants to hear has come through in all my posts. I will not apologise, however and only offer the explanation above because I feel those that felt my anger deserved it in the main. They continue to snigger and slap each other on the back and their smugness is really sickening. I cannot say that I am not disappointed.

Never the less I really cannot add much more to what Observer has said and what I have been saying all along. There is no doubting the fact Makarios screwed it all up and both sides suffered. The fact also still remains that we are at a point of virtual no return. We need to accept some hard truths about the situation and start to work within the bounds of reality. What the "RoC" is asking cannot be done. We cannot just up sticks and walk back into the arms of an entity that dose not cater for us. The alternatives we have discussed many times and I will not go into yet.

[Viewpoint]

FC

how di we become turks and greeks in cyprus.............becouse we have an assosiation cos we speak their language..............is this what makes us greeks and turks. if it is then cyprus is in a sorry state mentaly if we think this

Many countries have divisions. In America you can be a Texan or a New Yorker with many differences, and it is fine to be proud of your heritage and support your local football or basketball team. But above that the majority of people in both states think of themselves as American.

The tragedy of Cyprus is that pride in heritage has gone beyond that. I have written elsewhere that had Greek speaking Cypriots wished true independence in 1950 and invited Turkish speaking Cypriots to join them, there would have been a partnership that Britain could not have stood against in the decolonisation era, and all of Cyprus would be independent today. No British bases.

The desire for enosis expressed in a greater or lesser form by the vast majority of GCs made sure that one-fifth of the population of Cyprus would resist it strongly. Taksim was never a desire of any but a very small number of TCs, and even those who wanted it largely did so because of a reaction against enosis.

The last 50 years or so have made the original divisions deeper and made both sides more suspicious of each other. And a very Cypriot characteristic is that we are more concerned with what 'the other side' will gain rather than consider what we will win together.

Excellent post observer.

[iceman]

had Greek speaking Cypriots wished true independence in 1950 and invited Turkish speaking Cypriots to join them, there would have been a partnership that Britain could not have stood against in the decolonisation era, and all of Cyprus would be independent today. No British bases.

Totally agree...I have also made this point some weeks ago..Had the GC's wanted true independence instead of Enosis the TC's would have fought with them side by side against the British and we wouldn't have been in the shit we are today...

[free_cyprus]

observer
you say they cannot be comiting treason................so waht do you call someone that is comiting crimes and betrayals against their own people in the interest of foreign powers

[free_cyprus]

observer
so what is the cyprus heritage???????????

[Piratis]

Many countries have divisions. In America you can be a Texan or a New Yorker with many differences, and it is fine to be proud of your heritage and support your local football or basketball team. But above that the majority of people in both states think of themselves as American.

The tragedy of Cyprus is that pride in heritage has gone beyond that. I have written elsewhere that had Greek speaking Cypriots wished true independence in 1950 and invited Turkish speaking Cypriots to join them, there would have been a partnership that Britain could not have stood against in the decolonisation era, and all of Cyprus would be independent today. No British bases.

The desire for enosis expressed in a greater or lesser form by the vast majority of GCs made sure that one-fifth of the population of Cyprus would resist it strongly. Taksim was never a desire of any but a very small number of TCs, and even those who wanted it largely did so because of a reaction against enosis.

The last 50 years or so have made the original divisions deeper and made both sides more suspicious of each other. And a very Cypriot characteristic is that we are more concerned with what 'the other side' will gain rather than consider what we will win together.

Observer, if Cyprus was made by 82% Turks would you say the same? The Turks do not even allow an independent Kurdistan, even though that region has a Kurdish majority for more than a 1000 years.

The fact is that back then no island in the Mediterranean was independent. Union with Greece at that time meant liberation, and in fact not only it was not a crime, but it was our right as well. According to UN resolution 1541 about decolonization, territories that were decolonized should have "integration into an independent State" as one of the legitimate options to democratically choose from. http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

It is very similar to a country joining the EU today. Do you think that if Turkey is accepted in EU (the Cristian club), and the great majority of Turks support their EU accession, that the hard core Islamists of Turkey would be justified to fight against this legitimate choice, and then come and say "If you didn't demand EU accession there would be no conflict, so it your fault"?

I can perfectly understand why TCs did not want union with Greece. If I was a TC I wouldn't want it either. But it is one thing to express your disagreement and a whole different thing to try to present that legitimate demand of Greek Cypriots as a crime that warrants their ethnic cleansing and their human rights violations.

I agree with you that the demand for enosis was probably a mistake, since it gave the chance to the British to use the Turkish community of the island and apply easier their divide and rule practices.

On the other hand, do you really think that Britain and Turkey that have strategic interests on the island would not find some other excuse to secure their interests? For example if we fought for independence right from the beginning, and then at some point Britain and Turkey proposed to Turkish Cypriots partition with them having more than one third of the island. Do you think TCs would reject that? I really don't think so.
Also do not forget that the division between TCs and GCs was not created by the enosis cause, but it was there since the time of the Ottomans, where citizens were divided into higher class Muslims and lower class Christians.

So I can accept some of your arguments about Enosis, but today the truth is that enosis, and a small selective part of our history in general, are simply used as excuses by those that want to use their power to exploit and gain on the loss of others.

If those were not excuses the examples of the USA and the many other multi-ethnic countries could very easily be followed today as well. Those countries didn't achieve what they have today automatically, they also had to pass from a lot of problems and conflicts. The problem is that in Cyprus there is no will by the Turkish side to achieve that, history is just used as an excuse.

[zan]

The misuse of any ideology without taking into account ALL the factors is just plain ignorance. ENOSIS was not your right ever in the Cyprus situation. The one time in history when you had the right to vote as a majority was after 1960. There was not a single day before then that your rights were recognised within running of he country. Even after 1960 your majority vote was subject to agreement with the right to veto from the TC side, and quite rightly too. This being the case, your leader then set about taking away he rights of the TC people in order to carry out an age old injustice to the Cypriot people. That injustice was to give away our independence and sovereignty to a hostile nation of Greeks. Thank god it was stopped.

[Piratis]

Zan, once again you show not only your ignorance but your middle age barbarian mentality. Colonization was against International law and the UN passed several resolutions demanding the end of it. I will once again point you to this address, go and read it: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

There you will see that the British not only had to decolonize Cyprus, but also that there are 3 legitimate options for decolonization, one of which is "integration into an independent State". The people of the territory had the right to choose the way they would be decolonized via democratic procedures.

Instead of that the British and the Turks forced on some semi independence without even asking us what we wanted, or at least letting us to choose our constitution in a democratic way.

Maybe for you Greece is a hostile nation, for us is not. Using your login, the whole of Greece and all former areas of the Ottoman empire where Turkish minorities were formed should have never gained their self determination because the Turks saw them as hostile.

The Turks kept Cyprus for over 300 years against the will of Cypriots by butchering 10s of thousands to enforce their rule. That was fine with you. But when the great majority of people wanted to exercise their right and liberate themselves from colonization in one of the perfectly legitimate options available, it was "unjust" according to you. Ridiculous!

As I said you can say that you didn't want Enosis. But only that. You can not say that enosis was either illegal or unjust, simply because as a matter of fact it was perfectly legal and the most just thing that would happen to Cyprus after several centuries of foreign domination.

[observer]

free_cyprus

observer
you say they cannot be comiting treason

I said that I didn’t think you could commit treason against an island. I don’t think you can, any more than you can commit treason against a chair, a table, or any other inanimate object ... but the people of an island is a different matter.

................so waht do you call someone that is comiting crimes and betrayals against their own people in the interest of foreign powers

Complicated. Were the leaders of the GC community committing treason against their people when the people expressed the wish to unite with another country? Were (and are) the leaders of the TC community committing treason against their people when they resist, and assist another country in resisting that unification?

And before anyone comes in and quotes majorities and democracy, one aspect of a mature democracy is respect for minority opinions. If the majority think that homosexuals, for example, should be killed (and only a few years ago that might have got a majority) it doesn’t make it the right thing to do.

so what is the cyprus heritage???????????

The Cyprus heritage is a very mixed one – as it is in many countries. But in most countries pride in your heritage does not lead to the killing of people whose heritage is different to your own.