Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Personally I learned a lot from this Forum and I don't think a peaceful solution is possible.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Personally I learned a lot from this Forum and I don't think a peaceful solution is possible.

This forum is not a representative sample of the population, so we should be weary about making generalisations based on our experiences here.

From my own surveys (which were based on a representative sample) I reached the conclusion that a solution is indeed possible, that the "red lines" of each side (to borrow the term turkcyp used a few hours ago) do not overlap.

For instance, the TCs have a "red line" on governance and political equality of communities. The GCs can tolerate this (notice I didn't say like), it is not a "red line" for them also ...

The GCs have a "red line" on property rights. The TCs can tolerate this, it is not a "red line" for them also ...

Concerning the economy, I would say both sides are more or less on the same page.

Concerning security, we have conflicting "red lines" so long as we still gravitate around the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee, but the potential for consensus presents itself when we start bringing the EU into the picture.

So really, I fail to understand what this pessimism is all about ...

[magikthrill]

A re Alexandre,

If everyone could think like you (on both sides) then a solution wouldn't be hard to achieve.

[-mikkie2-]

Personally, I think a solution is possible. The problem is our politicians and to a large extent. As people we are so similar its ridiculous that we should live apart. What we have at the moment is a forced separation because if we are left to our own devices we actually gravitate towards eachother. And for that we have Turkey to thank - if only she stopped meddling so much with TC affairs as if they are her own.

I believe that once the economic fruits of unification become aparent we will all be wondering what all the fuss was about.

[turkcyp]

Dear Mikkie,

GCs can see Turkey as their enemy but that is apparently not the case for TCs and TCs tend to see Turkey as their saviour. Quite honestly we are still gratefull that they had come in 1974. The price may have been very high (reduction in independence for TCs) but it was a price we were willing to pay for the contiutaion of our existence on this island.

And even Gcs should have support the initial coming of Turkey (may be not the contiunued stay but initial intervention). Otherwise you might have been still ruled by military regime as a part of Greece. (everybody accepts that the reason junta collapsed was thier humiliation in Cyprus in 1974. Military regime might have collapsed later on because of other reasons, and that is why I have said might)

Anyway, that is not the point of this discussion, so you are entitled to your opinion. And we are way of the objective, but I am glad that you are optimistic about our chances. I am not.

Take care,

[magikthrill]

(reduction in independence for TCs)

turkcyp,

what independence do TCs have now? They live in isolation supported by Turkey as if it were a Turkish province. I mean if the breakway state's flag is an inverted Turkish flag.

[Saint Jimmy]

Yeah, I noticed that one, too, magik, but I thought it wasn't worth a new meaningless debate. Maybe the word 'reduction' there should be replaced by 'elimination'? If we are to believe what we have been fed by the media for the last 30 years, that is...

[turkcyp]

turkcyp,

what independence do TCs have now? They live in isolation supported by Turkey as if it were a Turkish province. I mean if the breakway state's flag is an inverted Turkish flag.

Turkeys main intervention to the north is in matters of foreign policy and military policy. Other than that TCs are left alone for domestic policies. Even at the top of our banking crises, we have messed up and they have simply took care of the tab. It is kind of autonomy, if you wish to name it that way.

Of course because of isolations, we have become increasingly dependent on Turkey's aid all the time which definitely made this autonomy more restricted in time but again compared to the alternative it was a price well paid for. As long as TCs continue to exist in Cyprus, then Turkeys strategic motives are satisfied as well.

As times goes by, as the memories of old fade away, as generation replaces previous ones, newer generations are more critical of the price TCs paid for because newer generations does not see GCs as much a threat as the older generations. They have a more global attitude to the world. And you can see this in the internal politics of the TC society.

Furthermore what was the alternative of TCs in 1974? Even if the price is very high, it was better than being extinct, or be in a situation of Turks in western Thrace where we would still debating if we can till call ourselves Turks. (Isn’t what you were debating in the other topic?) So no matter what you said it was a price well paid for. At least we end up continuing our own existence with our own internal laws, and customs.

So when GCs keep on talking about of the same rhetoric of “If turkey or outside world could leave us alone, we could have found solution in Cyprus peacefully”, majority of TCs keep on laughing in disbelief to that hypothesis. Yes we could have found a solution. A solution that does not keep TCs on the island in the long run.

Having said that “that was then not now”. The situation on the ground has changed so much since 1974. The communications with the rest of the world is much more open, and the whole world s more integrated and global right now. RoC is a part of a bigger civilization project. So I do not think that leader of GCs would employ the same tactics they have employed in 1963 to suppress us. That is why many of the TCs are more welcomed to idea of federation, especially younger generations. That is why the younger generations are more critical about the price our society have paid in 1974.

But everybody even the younger generations understands and knows that it was a price well paid for under the conditions of 1974.

Take care,

[magikthrill]

turkcyp,

i dont know if i should be surprised but I agreed with everythign you said in your post so i wont quote specifics.

As far as TC existence yes it was a price well paid for but that was ove 30 years ago.

Moreover, as you say that the newer TC generations dont view GCs as a threat (just like the newer generations of GCs dont view Greece as the motherland) I don't understand why you are so pessimistic about finding a solution?

[turkcyp]

.... I don't understand why you are so pessimistic about finding a solution?

I simply think as of right now, each sides' idea of fair solution is way far from the other's. Do not know what the future brings, but I am not as optimistics as you guys.

Take care,