Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Macedonian Press Agency

FRIDAY, 28 JANUARY 2005

SAE PRESIDENT VISIT TO WASHINGTON

Washington, 24 January 2005 (14:39 UTC+2)


World SAE President Andrew A. Athens, attended the festivities for President
Bush's inauguration in Washington and concluded a series of meetings dealing
with the U.S. position on Turkey and Cyprus, Omogeneia issues in Albania and
SAE's medical program.

`It was a very productive visit, especially in planning Omogeneia actions on
Cyprus', Mr. Athens stated. `At the meeting with the officers of the major
Cypriot organizations we decided to focus on a short-term, intensive effort
in anticipation of the October deadline Turkey is facing on the future of
its discussions with the European Union.' The meeting was requested by PSEKA
President Phil Christopher and attended by Cyprus Federation of America
President Panicos Papanicolaou and former president Savvas Tsivicos; Greek
Ambassador George Savvaidis and Cypriot Ambassador Evripides Evriviadis.

In meetings with highly placed Congressmen and State Department officials,
Mr. Athens sought and received key U.S. backing in support of the
application of Archbishop Anastasios of Tirana and Albania to be granted
Albanian citizenship. `Because Albania does not have clear laws regarding
citizenship, it has taken a long time to act on the application of his
Eminence', Mr. Athens said.

At a dinner hosted by Mr. Athens and Mr. Andrew Manatos of the Coordinated
Effort of Hellenes, the Omogeneia honoured his Eminence Archbishop Demetrios
of America. Among about 50 invitees were Congressman Bilirakis and State
Department and National Security Council officials, including Undersecretary
Barbara Pope, and USAID Director Andrew Natsios.

During his visit to Washington, Mr. Athens also presented reports on the
Primary Health Care Initiative to USAID Director Natsios and Ambassador for
Humanitarian Assistance Tom Adams. The development agency supports SAE's
health care program for Hellenes and recently utilized PHCI to upgrade
health care stations in Armenia and Georgia.

After the visit to Washington, Mr. Athens was scheduled to fly to
Thessaloniki to attend the commemoration of the Memorial Day honouring Greek
victims of the Holocaust.


http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg101902.html

[Alexandros Lordos]

Insan, don't you think your subject title "Hellenes worldwide in action, coordinated with the center" is a bit ... well ... dramatic?

Personally, I believe that "the worldwide Hellenes" as you so fondly call them are in too much of a stupor to be capable of any sort of action, let alone action of the coordinated kind ...

[insan]

Alexandros,

They don't do something wrong. They believe something and they sruggle for it with all of their "forces" and resources. The point I stressed is the brains of these Hellenes have been filled with the irrational and infeasible, so-called just and viable solution thesis. Something less then what they considered just and viable is seen equivelant of betreyal to Hellenism. This is the impression I've got by visiting their websites, reading the articles and news related with Cyprus problem.

SAE's strategy for National Issues focuses on the recruitment of as many as possible international powers for the support of important issues to Hellenism and Orthodoxy.

Some organizations especially in Europe, have significantly contributed to the formation of a common policy with the Hellenic Government, while others have developed strategies in the countries where they live. Hellenes in Australia, Canada, Great Britain and the United States of America, have vigorously pursued public affairs initiatives to inform the centers of power in various countries.

We are engaged in as strong and sustained effort to maintain the focus of the US Administration and the European Union, in finding a just and viable solution and resolving the Cyprus conflict.

The official recognition of the Patriarch of Jerusalem Eirinaios by the Israeli Government has also been a priority for us. Towards that goal, SAE has secured the support of U.S. Congressmen and of leaders in the Jewish communities in Greece, the U.S. and internationally.

Worldwide coordination and the participation of all Hellenes in the efforts for the support of our National Issues, is a requirement for gaining even more influence at the decision making centers. The World Hellenic Community has managed to motivate the participation of not only elected Hellene members at various Parliaments of the world, but of foreign Members of Parliaments and Governmental Officials, to encourage progress and promote Hellenic National Issues.

" According to President, Andrew A. Athens, "One of our strategic goals in 2004-05 is to achieve a truly worldwide coherent voice on ethnic issues" .

http://www.sae.gr/EN/Ethnika_Themata.asp


There 17.000.000 Hellenes have been living outside of Greece and they are all agree upon that accepting anything less than what they consider "just and viable" is betrayal to Hellenism. I think this "betrayal to Hellenism" part makes it dramatic not the subject I put...

[insan]

The Sorrows of Nationhood

By Peter Pappas
The hysterical community feels a compulsive need to recite its principles and values, the repetition serving as reassurance and reaffirmation of its own self-image. This does not mean that it is prepared to act on them, if to do so would lead to a painful confrontation….In the end, it is the principle of opportunism that wins the day. Logical rigor gives way to a — perfectly understandable — longing for tranquility. What could be more natural?
— Emmanuel Terray
On May 3, greekworks.com received the following e-mail, which I quote here precisely as we received it:

you [sic] should be ashamed to call your site greekworks
you fucken [sic] traitors of the greek [sic] ideals.
You better call it turkish [sic] bastards…….[sic]
thats [sic] what you are…pathetic individuals who for the interest of their wallet they [sic] are prepared to support anything that pays. even [sic] if it involves selling out your home land [sic]. right [sic].



.........................



Meanwhile, Europe will have to get used to this newly inverse situation in which Turkish Cypriots have successfully bypassed their old leadership (Mr. Denktash), while Mr. Papadopoulos still manages to convince Greek Cypriots to support his archaic (and arcane) position. As it does so, Europe must also now disregard the disingenuous protestations of the Greek Cypriots, and do everything in its power to open the world to Turkish Cypriots and vice versa. And Greeks all over the world who truly believe in a just resolution of the Cyprus conflict have a moral obligation to support this effort and do whatever they can — even if it is construed as a “betrayal of Hellenism” — to make the Greek Cypriots understand the sheer lunacy, and hopelessness, of their position. For quite a few years now, many Greek Cypriots have looked upon Serbia as a kind of ethnic-survivalist reflection, as a “brother” Orthodox nation mortally threatened by Islam and by an international conspiracy of support for the latter. While this might all be pure idiocy, it doesn’t make it any less true for those who believe it; the time has come, however, for Greek Cypriots to take another, truly hard, look at today’s Serbia. Is that really what they want Cyprus to become?



http://www.greekworks.com/content/index ... ationhood/

[Alexandros Lordos]

Insan,

it seems to me that after last April's referendum Greeks and Greek Cypriots are split along three groups, as to the future prospects for a solution:

- Those who support a short round of negotiations in some "external aspects of the solution" like guarantees, settlers, security, economy, with a proviso that other aspects will not be broached: In this group, a minority of the GCs is to be found, maybe about 25%, plus the socialist segment of the Hellenic "upper class", those who have become so involved with European ideals that they don't think like "traditional hellenes" any more.

- Those who support extensive renegotiations in all aspects of the solution, and prefer an open timetable that will allow all these issues to be brought to the table. This group is composed of people who are deeply concerned about the viability prospects of the UN Plan, and also concerned that in some key aspects it is unfair to GCs. Having said that, they do not lose sight of the fact that a solution has to satisfy the TCs also. This is the largest group amongst GCs, it is composed of maybe 45% of the GCs in Cyprus, but it has very few supporters amongst the Hellenes abroad ...

- Those who live in the clouds and want to use EU membership to blackmail Turkey for as much as they can get. These people are more or less unaware of the existence of TCs, they think that the problem is just "between the Greeks and the Turks", and they consider Crete to be the appropriate "solution model". These people generally do not have their facts straight, and their simplistic mathematics goes like this : Turkish Troops leave, Settlers leave, therefore Cyprus is Greek and only Greek. Amongst GCs, this group represents something like 30%, but amongst the mainland Greeks and the "worldwide hellenes" this group commands about 90% of public opinion!

This is why I said that the "worldwide Hellenes" are in too much of a stupor to do any work, coordinated or not. The stuff they say is so much withdrawn from reality that no one listens to them except themselves - not even the majority of GCs listen to them anymore, since we in Cyprus are actually trying to solve the problem, not just "dream and dream unto eternity" like the "worldwide hellenes".

I apologise if my post has offended anyone. What I am castigating is a general situation, and it is not meant to be taken personally.

[insan]

- Those who live in the clouds and want to use EU membership to blackmail Turkey for as much as they can get.

Alexandros,

Isn't this the current stance of Tassos and Christofias that recently reconfirmed with an affirmation, jointly with the Greek Government? Actuallt this has been the whole game based upon since the day Greece taken Cyprus to join EU. They knew that the EU membership would give them a stick to blackmail Turkey with the veto threat in order to get whatever they want... Though, in my opinion; Tassos, his team and their mainland collaborators are playing a dangerous game, in expectation of getting reinforcement to their arguments that has been based upon the things in "clouds". They suppose(Perhaps they are sure) that the reinforcement will come for their "just and viable" solution thesis from the Christian Democrat coalition, concervatives and racist political groups of EU who are completely against Turkey's full EU membership.

That's why Tassos, his team and their mainland collaborators are not in a hurry to solve the Cyprus problem because the political climate and structure in EU is not exactly how they've expected it to be. If any initiatives is started for negotiations it is clear that they will do whatever they can to delay it until October, 2005 to see whether Turkey will recognize the "RoC" as the legitimate government of Cyprus. Although it is clear that Turkey will never recognize RoC as the legitimate government of Cyprus, in its current form that has no TC participation. But nevertheless, Turkey feel herself under pressure to solve the Cyprus problem in frame of their own solution thesis which has been made clear with Annan 5. As I stated previously there were things that could have beeen improved and changed to make the Annan 5 fairer and more viable and if Tassos and his team have sincerely negotiated and exerted, most probably would have got what he wanted. If these are the things he and his team wish to renogotiate and provide; well but I don't think so because in his last statement he said that Annan Plan needed substantial improvements and changes to be made "just and viable". It is very clear that their agenda has already been completely based upon their own solution thesis that has been known by all of us and is not different than the arguments of the third group of Hellenes you mentioned above. We well know what's the official hard core Cyprus policy of GC leadership. Essentially; It has been based upon the full individual human rights of all citizens of RoC. They argue that rest is against the full individual human rights of all citizens of RoC. Though I too, support this idea but this not something we will be able to achieve immediatly, by force of international laws. It is something we will be able to achieve in long term as a consequence of normalization process. The desired freedoms and democrasy will come with the encouraged natural evolution of the menatality of Cypriots not by force of those hard core policies.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Isn't this the current stance of Tassos and Christofias that recently reconfirmed with an affirmation, jointly with the Greek Government?

Actually, I think that Tassos and Christofias are firmly in the second group ... it is true that they are happy to see Turkey "sweat" over her EU accession, but they are not in the clouds ... what they are hoping for is that:

a) The momentum for a "minimal improvements solution" will dissipate over the next few months.

b) Some preliminary and open-ended negotiations will happen which will re-legitimise the "process of negotiation" (because now we are not supposed to negotiate, we are just supposed to say what changes we want so that Annan will write a new version of his plan after "taking our wishes into account", and then call for a second referendum).

c) The balance of power will gradually begin to shift, with Turkey beginning to "sweat" over her EU accession. (and this shift in the balance will make Turkey less "stingy" on the negotiating table)

d) And then, it will be time for conclusive negotiations on the Cyprus Problem.

Personally, I am also in this same group: Unfortunately I do not believe that if we just "tell everyone what we want" then an acceptable plan will come along ... Turkey will just sit pretty and say "no, this is unacceptable and no, that is unacceptable" and we will be back at square one.

What I believe the next step should be (and this is where I feel the RoC government has perhaps not done enough) is to get into a "confidence building mode", find a way to end the economic isolation of the TCs (but without creating a Taiwan), find ways for the two communities to mix more and co-operate more on a day-to-day basis, and at the same time begin official negotiations at an easy and un-rushed pace, so that the real issues and concerns of the two sides will come to the surface. Both sides have changed administrations (Clerides was replaced by Papadopoulos and Denktash will soon be replaced by Talat), and the new leaderships - which express different viewpoints than the previous leaderships - need a chance to express themselves as well.

Concerning Papadopoulos, I think his main concern is that the Federal Government will be dysfunctional and fall into deadlocks. His views are guided by his experience as a minister in the 60s, an experience which Clerides did not have. So if we all just let Papadopoulos speak, he might just say something that will make the Solution a lot better for all of us. Don't forget that if it wasn't for Papadopoulos to scream out, the Annan Plan would still have provided for a co-presidency (of Denktash + himself) lasting for three years after the agreement! Nobody else complained about this huge and glaring mistake. Clerides was a good man, but he was nowhere near as careful. Another complaint of Papadopoulos is the lack of integrated institutions in the new state of affairs, the lack of situations where Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots would strive together for the same goals. Again, Clerides did not care much about such things, he was more of a "peace at all cost" kind of guy ...

Concerning Talat, I think he represents a radically different perspective than Denktash. Despite his hard-line public rhetoric, I am sure he is willing to think of the solution with a more modern mind, and for instance, not be so hung up about total separation of the two communites (like Denktash was), or about "separate sovereignty", which is just a waste of time ... Talat wants to think of himself as a statesmen, a European statesman, and I expect that he will behave like one at the negotiating table. Furthermore, he has a practical, rather than a legal mind, and that will complement Papadopoulos' nit-picky approach ...

So I guess what I am saying is: Let's give our new leaders a chance to negotiate, let's give them 2 or 3 years to talk things over, like we gave to Clerides and Denktash. I firmly believe that they will build on the Annan Plan, to come up with something a lot better.

[insan]

So I guess what I am saying is: Let's give our new leaders a chance to negotiate, let's give them 2 or 3 years to talk things over, like we gave to Clerides and Denktash. I firmly believe that they will build on the Annan Plan, to come up with something a lot better.

I hope they manage to come up with something a lot better that satisfy vast majority of Cypriots and all concerned parties.

Do you have an idea what might Tassos and his team have in their minds as "substantial" impovements and changes on the Annan Plan?

A completely new plan based upon their own solution thesis, backed with international law and EU acquis communautaire that pypasses all concerns of TCs and Turkey on the assumption that all concerns of TCs and Turkey will be effaced in an EU member Cyprus without political equality and guarantorship of Turkey?

It is obvious to me that this is their sole aim. I strongly believe that the GC leadeship and their backing team will never accept anything that they consider as illegal, dysfunctional, contardict with international law and EU acquis communautaire...

They don't care whether the things they consider "just and viable" are rational and feasible under the Cyprus's well known particular circumstances or not. It is clear to me that they completely based their arguments upon international law and EU acquis communautaire. International law and EU acquis communautaire may seem like the strongest weapon against Turkish solution thesis but I don't think it would work on Cyprus issue when the other factors such as new world conjuncture, issues concerning middle east have been taken into consideration.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Do you have an idea what might Tassos and his team have in their minds as "substantial" impovements and changes on the Annan Plan?

Actually, if you listen ot his public statements, Tassos tends to distance himself from the "European Solution" lobby. I must admit he "gained points" in my estimation last December, when the hard-line lobby was screaming for him to veto Turkey and he curtly ignored them ...

Tassos's statements keep focusing on the "inner structure of the Federal State", his real nightmare is administrative deadlocks ...

What exactly he will ask for in this issue I am not sure, but if his negotiating stance last year is an indication to go by, he will not totally abandon the Annan Plan structure ... for instance, he will not ask for something so extreme as "simple majority rule for every decision" - he has enough negotiating experience to know that this will be a waste of everyone's time. What I think he will do, is to try to "push the slider" on the issue of political equality, from where it is now (which provides maximum satisfaction to TC blocking power demands) to somewhere closer to the GC thesis (with a greater focus on functionality, but with "just enough" respect paid to the TC demand for blocking powers).

I expect that Tassos will mostly focus on this issue, and perhaps under-negotiate other demands that GCs have, such as return of refugees ...

As to the issue of security, I am not sure what his stance will be. But I don't think he is at the extreme end of the political spectrum on this issue. From information I am getting, it seems that his foreign ministry is mostly focusing on how to moderate Turkey's involvement, rather than how to cancel it alotgether.

[insan]

So, Alexandros;

Do you expect that Turkey will diplomatically recognize the RoC as a legitimate government represents whole Cyprus, before a permenant solution has been reached?

In my opinion, it is impossible. So what would happen in that case?


In that case, Tassos together with Greece and some other EU countries; most probably would veto Turkey in October. Thereafter, either Tassos together with Greece and some other EU countries would claim that whole Cyprus is the soil of EU and Turkey should completely withdraw all of her troops, unconditionally or all concerned parties would focus upon an agreed partition...


What's your opinions, Alexandros?