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[insan]

but insan isist that the greek ruling elite control t/c and not the turkish ruling elite which in large part is the turkish military.

I've suggested that:

1- 1960-63: GC ruling Elite
2- 1963-present time: GC Ruling Elite and Turkish Ruling Elite


It is a known and obvious fact that historicaly Turkey and Greece have never fully trusted to each other because of ancestral stuff. Asia minor and Cyprus still are the bleeding wounds for Hellenic Ruling Elite. They still dream of to make this ex-ancestral lands a part of Hellenism. This is their cause. Since the independence of Greece they exerted great effort to get these ex-ancestral lands back from Turks. Naturally Turks fought for not to give back these lands because those lands don't belong to Hellenes anymore.

Cyprus is the home of two major communities(GCs and TCs) and some minorities. These two communities are two politically equal partner of the state of Cyprus. This should be acknowledged by Hellenic Ruling Elite. If they don't accept the political equality of TC community, reunification will never happen. Political equality is not something TCs will give up under the circumstances. TCs and Turkey will never let Hellenic Ruling Elite to achieve their dream to make Cyprus a Hellen Island. Hellenic Ruling Elite either will sincerely acknowledge that Cyprus is a home for two politically equal communities; Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots or forever lose a part of it which percentagely belongs to Turkish Cypriots. Time is over for seeking a solution for reunification. Soon a new initiative will be started and this will be the last try. If Hellenic Ruling Elite insist on majority rule, immediate withdrawal of all Turkish troops, return of all refugees, less land ownership and administred area for TCs, no guarantorship of Turkey, more coastline for GCs; efforts to reach a compromised solution will once again fail and thenceforth, TC community and Turkey will focus upon solely to two seperate state thesis. As I said it before, whether the Hellenic Ruling Elite like it or not...

[insan]

Perhaps the Turkish 'ruling elite' should be reminded of that because their argument is that the Turkish Army invaded presicely to protect the TC's!

TC existence in Cyprus, as a politically equal community is just one part of the assurance of Turkey's security. Turkey is well aware of which political groups have dreams to weaken and divide her in order to get their ex-ancestral lands back. There are still idiots who dream "revival of Byzantium". There are idiots which dream of a Pontus state, Kurdish State and Armenian State on her soil. There are idiots who dream a Hellen dominated Cyprus. There are idiots who dream and scheme to take revenge of everything they don't like about Turkey and her people. Since the first day Atatürk started the liberation war against those idiots, their hatred and hostile actions against Turkey doubled. These are all well known facts that Turks and TCs are aware.

Denktash like politicians and their backing teams have always brought the grist to the mills of those idiots by believing they were doing right. They have never learnt that two wrongs don't make one right. They have never learnt that retaliating to an illegality with another illegality don't make their retaliation legal. The extreme right wingers are extreme right wingers. They will never change. They will always find a considerable number of youngsters to bequeath their legacy. This is the only way they can keep themselves in power or in main opposition group. Racism and extremism is uptrend all around the world, even in so-called civilized EU. It's not hard to see where the world is going through. So, stop telling me those heavenly fairy-tales.

[pantelis]

Insan and Brother,
What the general said, it's nothing new.
There was a revolution in Turkey, by Kemal, where the "foundations" where set very deep. Only a new revolution in Turkey, would create real change. The outcome of a new Turkish revolution, is not predictable though; Turkey could fully democratize or become fully Islamic. Today's "middle of the road" situation, cannot last for ever. The outcome of the George/Tony, "New Middle East" experiment, will play a big role in Turkey's future.
In the mean-time, the "Cyprus Problem" will remain a problem, until Turkey's internal problems are resolved.
If you read Cyprus's history, you should know the island never housed two military powers, at the same time. As the new one comes in, the old one moves out, and the Cypriots..... simply change "masters".

[insan]

Insan and Brother,
What the general said, it's nothing new.

Which part of the General's speech isn't new, Pantelis. Until now, I've never heard such a nonsense which claims that Turkish army came to Cyprus for the Turkish citizens who were living in Northern Cyprus.

There was a revolution in Turkey, by Kemal, where the "foundations" where set very deep. Only a new revolution in Turkey, would create real change.

Revolutions like M. Kemal and his friends made are no longer possible at this age, Pantelis. The social, internal dynamics together with economical stability make the revolution in this age. And they are called social reforms. It's not easy to change the wrong habits and traditional customs which are obstacles in front of enlightment and development of Turrkey that perhaps have 100 times more hostile political groups both within and all around the world. Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was a rare exception in Turkey's history which surprized the whole world by liberating Turkey and puting in paractice all those radical and social reforms in the last period of empires.

The outcome of a new Turkish revolution, is not predictable though; Turkey could fully democratize or become fully Islamic.

In my opinion, either Turkey will fully be democratized in 10 or 15 years time or be the victim of New World order, in this age of globalization. Neither Turkish army, nor her allies let her to be an Islamic country that will not compatible with the alliance and plans over middle east and far east.

Today's "middle of the road" situation, cannot last for ever. The outcome of the George/Tony, "New Middle East" experiment, will play a big role in Turkey's future.

My perceptions too, telling me similar things as what you suggested and I think Cyprus also included in this scenario.

In the mean-time, the "Cyprus Problem" will remain a problem, until Turkey's internal problems are resolved.

In my opinion, as I suggested in my previous post; if the last initiative fails too, Cyprus problem will enter to a new phase taht Turkey and TCs solely will have focused upon an agreed partition and two seperate states. We have come to end of the road, Pantelis. In this information age everything has to run in parallel to globalization and new world order. As I said in my previous post, Hellenic Ruling elite either will sincerely acknowledge TCs as a politically equal partner of a reunited Cyprusand Turkey as a leading power in East mediterennean region or they have been obliged to acknowledge by force of the super powers or the super powers have been obliged to make some little changes in their plans to balance the powers of the countries in East Mediterannean region. Other than Christian Democrats, the other political groups of EU and US neither want to upset nor dare to upset Turkey by forcing her to accept the solution thesis of Hellenic Ruling Elite. Though the non christian democrat political groups of EU may change their minds if Turkey does not fulfill the requirement concerning the human rights.

If you read Cyprus's history, you should know the island never housed two military powers, at the same time. As the new one comes in, the old one moves out, and the Cypriots..... simply change "masters".

Everything depends upon the circumstances of the regions, alliances and the plans they agreed upon. As I stated previously, in the new world order plan Turkey has a main, leading role in East Mediterennean and Middle East. In this regard, she demanded to undertake the main role and she has given it by the dominant political super powers of the world. Though there are groups who don't trust Turkey within these dominant political super powers of the world. Nevertheless, the main opposition groups(Christian Democrats, Hellenic Ruling Elite, Armenians, Conservatives, racists etc) of those dominant political super powers of world are totally against the particiapation and role of Turkey in this paln. Noe that's where the whole story based upon. If Turkey wants to win what he consider as her right and fair, she has to put an end the violations of human rights otherwise she will lose most of her allies in EU and come closer with US as it always has been. They are both happy with the reciprocal give and take although time to time their relations has worsened.


One way or another, all roads leads to Rome. My perceptions in light of my interpretations simply tell me that WW3 knocking our doors. It will start in middle east then jump to East Mediterennean and soon will spread to the whole Europe.

And fianlly a traditional last word to my pessimistic view: I hope I'm wrong

[pantelis]

Dear Insan,
You keep referring to the

Hellenic Ruling elite

.
I must be very stupid or very naive, at my 45, not to realize the existence of such a group.
Can you please enlighten me, tell me who are these people?
All I have seen, are seasonal leaders who not only differ in ideologies, but change 180 degrees during their term of "power". The Greek military has no political power what so ever since the fall of the Junta, which was not a freely acting entity anyway. Who are these people Insan, who run our lives from behind the scenes?

[insan]

Hi Pantelis,

A while ago Othellos asked the same question about what I meant by the definition of "Hellenic Ruling Elite" and the below quote has been my answer:

The other name of Greece is Hellas, isn't it? So, the other name of the Greek descendant people who live in Greece and all around the world is Hellene. And the the Greek descendant political leaders, religious leaders, chairmen of lobby organisations, chairmen of NGOs, chairmen of national organisations all together compose the Hellene's Ruling elite, in my mind. Aren't they elite? If they are not an elite class, I can change my definition to Hellene's ruling class. But that's not the point I wanted to stress in the phrase "Hellen(e)'s Ruling Elite. The point in this phrase is, the dominant organizations and persons who have an important role in decision making mechanisms of Hellenes living all around the world. In this respect, there's only a small spelling error in this phrase and that is "e" at the end of Hellen. I shortly use "Hellene's ruling elite" instead of mentioning all of the organizations and persons within.

And you should already have known which are the most effective ones that have influential power upon both internal and external decision making mechanisms, legislature and executive authorities.


AHI, PASEKA, PSEKA, SAEAMERICA, Cyprus Federation of America, Hellenic Front and its sub organizations, POMAK, Omospondia Kypriakon Organoseon Ellados (O.K.O.E.), FEDERATIONS OF OVERSEAS CYPRIOTS
UNITED KINGDOM and a few others.


I've visited the websites of all these organizations and read many articles writen by the chairmen or leading members of these organizations. All of them agree upon that nothing less than the below listed demands is acceptable and satisfactory for them. They consider making any concessions from those issues is equivelent to betreyal to Hellenism.


1- Immediate withdrawal of all Turkish troops.
2- No guarantorship of Turkey.
3- Majority Rule.
4- Less land ownership for TCs.
5- More coastline to GCs.
6- Return of all refuggees.
7- No temporary or permenant restrictions on basic human rights
8- Repatriation of all settlers.


For more than 3 decades these are the issues they have based their dtruggle upon and I don't think there's any power in the world stopping them to struggle for these...

[pantelis]

Dear Insan,
I am sorry (not really) to tell you that your theory/logic are completely wrong. The groups you have listed above, have nothing to do with the key word "ruling". They may be Hellenic, they may think of themselves as "elite", but they had never had any influence on the "ruling" part of Cyprus. Some of them, at times, have come into direct conflicts with the governments of both Greece and Cyprus. The governments of Greece and Cyprus were not always in agreement (to say the least) with each other.
On the other hand, the Turkish Cypriots never had a "voice" or "mind" of their own. The Turkish politicians never had control of Turkey either.
Do you think they do today?
The AKP has majority in the Turkish parliament (33% of the votes, won 67 % of the seats - correct me if I am wrong), but do they have control of the country - both internal and external affairs)? If the power and influence of the Turkish political leadership is limited, how much is the power of the TC leadership? I call the TC "government" a pseudo-government, because it has no real power to make meaningful decisions. Am I wrong?
Is the role and power of the Turkish Ruling elite ("deep state"), similar to the one, as per your interpretation, of the Hellenic "ruling" elite?

[insan]

The AKP has majority in the Turkish parliament (33% of the votes, won 67 % of the seats - correct me if I am wrong), but do they have control of the country - both internal and external affairs)? If the power and influence of the Turkish political leadership is limited, how much is the power of the TC leadership? I call the TC "government" a pseudo-government, because it has no real power to make meaningful decisions. Am I wrong?
Is the role and power of the Turkish Ruling elite ("deep state"), similar to the one, as per your interpretation, of the Hellenic "ruling" elite?

Dear Pantelis,

In capitalist countries, in connection with the historical background, political traditions and social structure; the power is in the hands of big capital owners. These big capital owners generally come together under a right wing party that is most promising for their self-interests. This is same in all capitalist countries in different degrees. Regarding the nationalistic issues almost all right-winger political parties unite upon the same political stance. "Deep state" is the extreme level of this govermnetal relations that appears time to time in every capitalist country in different degrees.


AKP have control of the country as much its sub interest groups and oppositions allow it as in any other capitalist country. The degree of having control on any issue depends the issue. For instance Cyprus issue is an issue that many political groups both in Turkey and North Cyprus have different points of views. These different political groups which have different points of view and interests reagrding the Cyprus problem; always try to influence the decisions of the parties in power.


Regarding to Cyprus issue, there are two center of decision making and also there are two centers which try to influence the decision of the two centers. Partie(s) in power, in Turkey have a Cyprus policy which has been formed by the parties in power, shaped and approved by all concerned, influential parties. Parties in power, in North also have a Cyprus policy which has been formed by the parties in power, shaped and approved by all concerned, influential parties. Among all of these different political parties, there have always been divergence of opinion in different degrees. Even within the same group. For instance in 1986, Denktash harshly forced by Ozal government to go Newyork to sign the draft framework of UN proposals while Kyprianou rejected it. A few years ago Talat freely and baldly could critisize some policies and stance of the then Turkish governments, Denktash and Eroglu. Now his part is in power and instead of irritating Turkey he chose to collaborate and form common policies regarding Cyprus problem, with Turkey. If there were big divergence of opinion among them their collaboration won't last long and soon would have collapsed.


Actually our issue isn't how the political relations of different political parties work in Turkish-TC politics. The issue is that, the political groups of Hellenic Rulin Elite and the most of influential political groups of Hellenic world which constitute the opposition are all united under the same wing regarding the Cyprus issue and moreover they are all agree upon not to make any concessions for the issues I listed above. They are free to believe and struggle for whatever they wish but can you tell me that a compromised solution would be possible with their agreed stance? Have a look what their demands are and tell me whether the next initiative would be succesfull of not. There's no way in my opinion.


You call the TC "government" a pseudo-government, because it has no real power to make meaningful decisions. What is meaningful decision for you Pantelis? You expect them to declare "yes" for all of the irrational, infeasible demands of Hellenic Ruling elite that I listed above? What should TC political parties do under the current circumstances while the intentions of Hellenic Ruling Elite is obvious. Do you think there are TC politicians who trust T-Papa and his team but don't dare to reveal it, in fear of Turkish army?


Regarding to the Ruling Elites of Hellenes and Turks; as I stated above "deep state" is the extreme level of the governmental relation and does not always appear. In turkey, there have been times that the "deep state" has taken full control of some issues such as drug trafficking in South East of Turkey, torture, violation of human rights, bribery etc. There are some similarities with the "deep state" of Hellenic Ruling Elite on some issues for instance PKK camps in Greece and South Cyprus, issuing a passport for Ocalan, tolerance for the terrorist actions against the foreign nationals living in Greece, money laundering in South, Milosevich case etc...

[turkcyp]

Perhaps the Turkish 'ruling elite' should be reminded of that because their argument is that the Turkish Army invaded presicely to protect the TC's!

They are the same thing Mikkie2,

TCs security and their continued existence on this island is paramount to Turkey's security. That is why I have said that these two reasons were perfectly alligned.

And one more thing,

Haven't you ever heard of Denktas talking in the last 30 years at all. The one theme you can not miss is that "TCs are security buffer for Turkey". Even TC elites did not deny hat, and noither the TCs themselves.

Everybody know in north Cyprus that Turkish intervention's one of the big reasons was the security concerns of Turkey. But in our case it was perfectly alligned with TC's own security concerns so we had welcomed them.

Take care,