Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

You have no idea how sad I feel at the moment GR. As usual your powers of perseption let you down. I have let it be known in the past that I have posted on the ATCA site...Wake up. I still have not got a nationalistic bone in my body but know what I must fight for.

Hey, I was only kidding... sorry!

[devil]

I would like to add a thought. Kikapu apparently lives in Switzerland, a country which I, too, lived in for most of my life. This is sure to colour his outlook.

Switzerland is a country with about 6 (possibly more) ethnicities and four national languages. Compared with most other countries, it is more or less without strife. There is talk about the Roestigraben, an imaginary ditch which separates the French- and German-dialect-speaking communities. This is more political because the French-speakers tend to be more progressive than the relatively conservative German-speakers and shows up most in Federal referenda and popular initiatives where the French speaking Cantons often vote differently from the rest.

So why should Switzerland be peaceful, when there is so much difference between the peoples (more so than between GCs and TCs)? The simple answer is because the political system is upside-down. There are three levels of political power. The most important is the Commune, the village, the town, whatever you like to call it, and this absorbs the majority of your taxes and is responsible for everything within its boundaries. Each commune has a two-level administration, a council and an executive and deals with everything it can, schools, rubbish, roads, police, inhabitants, building permits. Everyone knows the councillors and executive and they speak with them over a glass of beer or wine in the Communal bistrot. Second to this is the Canton (similar to the districts here). Their job is to mainly to ensure co-ordination between the communes and to produce laws that bind them together in a bicameral government (usually) plus executive. For example, they may pronounce on the school curriculum that the Communes must administer. The Cantons also administer things beyond the reach of individual communes, such as public hospitals and motorways (and the police to monitor them). Taxes are usually smaller than for the Communes, because they have less political power. The central Federal Government is the weakest of the lot and perceive very little in direct taxes. It, too, has a bicameral government and an executive (the Federal Council) consisting of only 7 members, including the President, who is elected for a 1-year, non re-eligible, stint. The Federal government concerns itself only to things of national interest, the army (militia), customs, money, foreign affairs, environment and so on.

Why do I mention this? Kikapu is impregnated with this outlook of how successful a multi-lingual country can work well. I don't wish to put words in his mouth, but I'm reasonably sure that he it has crossed his mind that the Cyprus problem could be well on the way to being solved if the most powerful political unit were the Commune, be it a majority of Greek, Turkish, Maronite, Armenian or whatever. This would be in a District (Canton) which could have its own majority. The Federal government would handle only matters of national importance and the President would be an almost unknown entity and would change yearly (between persons from each language division and different political parties). There would be no cult of the personality, so that, even if Christofias, Papadopoulos, Talat and Denktash were members of the Federal Council, they would have no individual power as all decisions would be made collegially.

Kikapu, am I right in reading your mind?

[Alexios]

Hi everybody,
I have kept out of all this until i felt obliged to by Zan's post above.First of all i confirm Zan's stance on the ATCA forum.Don't go searching though, he used a different name.I was demonized in that forum and felt very much the way Zan feels now. But i didn't give up hope.
Kikapu's description of his holidays in Cyprus was a refreshingly different effort to relay to the rest of us his experiences as a T/C who lived for 40 odd years away from his homeland, having decided to spend some days in the South.Overall, to be honest, i don't see why we all concentrated on analysing how good the ordinary G/C people reacted and or behaved towards him! Do we have any doubts?? Do we G/Cs have any doubts as to the good character and hospitality of the majority of T/C ordinary people?? Why were some G/C members of the forum so overjoyed at reading how well the man was received?? Why do we need this re-assurance??!! I am not denying that some people on both sides spoil the general picture but the fact remains that Cypriots are in their huge majority kind hearted, generous people.I ask every single one of you. Do you think that even the "hardest liners" in political views amongst us, would not welcome the hardest liner from the other side on a personal basis?? I have met several partitionist T/Cs.With the exception of one single case, nobody else made me feel unwelcomed, or was hostile towards me.Of course i felt uncomfortable at times but that is only natural.I feel more uncomfortable with G/Cs when discussing politics, ESPECIALLY with dear friends and relatives!!! The point is to keep a cool head, not to get emotional, hard as it is, and try to see the other person's point of view.
There is no doubt, a lot of people, both G/Cs and T/Cs put personal gain, or what they consider as personal gain, above the common good.Not all can forsee the long term disastrous effects of partition.Not all can understand the negative impact of the introvert phase both at political and communal level we have entered into. Let us talk and disagree.This is the essence of forums such as this one. Let us not however undermine that very thing we are proud of as Cypriots.That deep down we are a decent lot, much as we can be infuriating and infuriated at times with our own shortfalls, which i believe are all too evident on this specific threat.

[observer]

Well put Alexios. I am sure that any Cypriot, TC or GC. would welcome back any other Cypriot, TC or GC, after an absence of 42 years.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu, thank you so much for telling us of your experiences in Cyprus! I have enjoyed reading your stories so much (And not just your trip to Cyprus stories) you write with such warmth and honesty...it's great!

... )

Any time Natty. I spent about 20 hours writing it all, without a lot of notes written down while in Cyprus, as each day went by. I used the maps and restaurant business cards, just to get the names correct. I have lived the experience, and if you ask me a question a year from now on what I have written, I will be able to give it to you, the same as it is today.

I was talking with ordinary people on one to one basis. I was not reporting what the Governments position is on anything to do with the Cyprus problem. If I went to the North, it would have been much easier for me, to interact with the TC's. I would have learned, that I had no problem talking with the TC's. Just what would have gained from that experience. I already knew the answer, because I'm a TC. In order to test the TC's reactions, it would be best, if a GC went and spent 2 weeks in the North. But we already heard from Fanos, that there was no problem.

What the VP's and Zan's are upset about, is not the fact it is one sided story ( actually an experience in the South), which is not a story with anything political, it puts them to shame, on how they can't lie about what will happen to the TC's, if they lived with the GC's. My god, Zan even ridiculed, that there was a TC, Armenian, and 2 GC's talking together, in Turkish and Greek, in Larnaca.

No my friends, these people are upset, that a independent, honest, and someone who believes in justice and Democracy, can put water over their Partitionist fire.

I say, let the smoke rise from doused fire.

[Kikapu]

I would like to add a thought. Kikapu apparently lives in Switzerland, a country which I, too, lived in for most of my life. This is sure to colour his outlook.

Switzerland is a country with about 6 (possibly more) ethnicities and four national languages. Compared with most other countries, it is more or less without strife. There is talk about the Roestigraben, an imaginary ditch which separates the French- and German-dialect-speaking communities. This is more political because the French-speakers tend to be more progressive than the relatively conservative German-speakers and shows up most in Federal referenda and popular initiatives where the French speaking Cantons often vote differently from the rest.

So why should Switzerland be peaceful, when there is so much difference between the peoples (more so than between GCs and TCs)? The simple answer is because the political system is upside-down. There are three levels of political power. The most important is the Commune, the village, the town, whatever you like to call it, and this absorbs the majority of your taxes and is responsible for everything within its boundaries. Each commune has a two-level administration, a council and an executive and deals with everything it can, schools, rubbish, roads, police, inhabitants, building permits. Everyone knows the councillors and executive and they speak with them over a glass of beer or wine in the Communal bistrot. Second to this is the Canton (similar to the districts here). Their job is to mainly to ensure co-ordination between the communes and to produce laws that bind them together in a bicameral government (usually) plus executive. For example, they may pronounce on the school curriculum that the Communes must administer. The Cantons also administer things beyond the reach of individual communes, such as public hospitals and motorways (and the police to monitor them). Taxes are usually smaller than for the Communes, because they have less political power. The central Federal Government is the weakest of the lot and perceive very little in direct taxes. It, too, has a bicameral government and an executive (the Federal Council) consisting of only 7 members, including the President, who is elected for a 1-year, non re-eligible, stint. The Federal government concerns itself only to things of national interest, the army (militia), customs, money, foreign affairs, environment and so on.

Why do I mention this? Kikapu is impregnated with this outlook of how successful a multi-lingual country can work well. I don't wish to put words in his mouth, but I'm reasonably sure that he it has crossed his mind that the Cyprus problem could be well on the way to being solved if the most powerful political unit were the Commune, be it a majority of Greek, Turkish, Maronite, Armenian or whatever. This would be in a District (Canton) which could have its own majority. The Federal government would handle only matters of national importance and the President would be an almost unknown entity and would change yearly (between persons from each language division and different political parties). There would be no cult of the personality, so that, even if Christofias, Papadopoulos, Talat and Denktash were members of the Federal Council, they would have no individual power as all decisions would be made collegially.

Kikapu, am I right in reading your mind?

Devil,

You are a very intelligent person Devil, in all areas that you write about on the forum. You understand your countries political system, more than any of us. I have only been living in Switzerland for the past 3 years, but have been coming here on and off, for the last 12 years.

This country functions very well with it's 4 distinct languages, as well as many more, from the approx. 40% immigrant, that live here. I have lived all my life, in a multi cultural nations, such as UK and USA. Cyprus is not anything special, with it's 2 main distinct languages. What ever the political reasons were before for our countries civil war between the TC's and the GC's, has now come down to greed and free for all land grab, and the Partitionist are the biggest offenders, in this crime, against the interest of their country and innocent citizens. To this end, I will continue to push for a 2 states 1 Country Federal solution, and not the 2 separate State solution, the Partitionist want, with their illegal gains, in their pocket. They would rather live in a "corrupt society" than a free society with the rule of law being the principles of the land. I do not share their view, and neither does most Cypriots, GC's and TC's together.

[Viewpoint]

He did not visit the occupied part of Cyprus because the British and the American foreign offices advised him that as a British national as well as an American national he could not rely on their respective embassies , which do not exist in the occupied part , to offer him sanctuary should the need arose. As far as your vitriolic comments "and never think about TCs as being his own people."" Let me refresh your memory that his OWN people are the Cypriot people just as they are my people , T/C and G/Cs alike. You consider your self , as you have on many occasions stated , a Turk , that sees Cyprus as another foreign country . Well mate you are wrong. Kikapu has got more Cypriotness in his little finger than you have in your entire body.

.

My good friend Miltiades is absolutely correct, in what he says. If the Partitionist and the Propagandist had an once of integrity, they would not have challenged him, but since they have, I will have to respond.

Since most of you have British Passports, look at page 3, article 6 on Dual Nationalities. " British National who are also Nationals of another country cannot be protected by Her Majesty's Representatives against the authorities of that country. If, under the laws of that country, they are liable for any obligation ( such as Military Service), the fact that they are British nationals, does not exempt them from it".

For American Citizens, it's even worse.
Pages 4 & 5,

Article 8. Loss of U:S Citizenship: "Under certain circumstances, you may lose your US citizenship by (3) serving in the armed forces of a foreign state".

Dual Citizens.
Article 9. Very much same as the British Passport, with warning about being "conscription for military service for it's citizens, while in that countries jurisdiction".

We all know that the "TRNC" is not a country, but I did not want to deal with it.

You are still ignoring the fact that you may visit the TRNC for upto 90days a year without having to do miltary service. In time due to your age you will no longer have to do any miltary service and allowing for the fact you will never come to live in the TRNC whats your problem? You may visit without any problems but you know what its better that you never see the north as you will find and promote all its faults to gain points from your GC bum chums.

Why is then that my nephew ( turkish cypriot) was held in northern cyprus and refused permission to fly home to the UK because they said he had to do his national service? He missed his plane and had to provide faxed information to inform them he was still at school in the UK (he had just had his 18th birthday while over in Cyprus? It took over a week to sort that out and his passport was withheld so that he could not leave? This was last year by the way

Obviously he tried to flaunt the laws of the TRNC and was inconvenienced for a few days but did he have to do miltary service once he produced the required documents? NO.

[Kikapu]

So how much land have you or your family have stolen VP. Lets see how brave you all are. Your Partitionist truth is out. You're not even a Cypriot, so stop lecturing other, what they are. If you have stolen GC land, HARAM olsun.

Why are you not answering this very simple question VP. You are a proud Partitionist, so show us how brave you are, by telling us, how much stolen GC land you and your family have bought, if any.

If none, then just say so.

[devil]

Obviously he tried to flaunt the laws of the TRNC and was inconvenienced for a few days but did he have to do miltary service once he produced the required documents? NO.

This is a totally irrelevant red herring. K perceived he may have been in danger. He therefore simply - and wisely - avoided the risk. It doesn't matter 2 hoots whether his perception was well- or ill-founded.

[Kikapu]