Cyprus-Forum.com

[Simon]

1) That is good, but it does not compensate for the fact that the majority of TCs want partition.

2) 18% is your population; why should you have any more of the island? Especially when it is TCs that want partition in the first place. Wouldn't this be unfair to GCs?

Is there anybody who can edit a Cyprus map and show us just how much 18% would be of the island? Obviously, I am not concerned with what towns you include in the 18%, but I'm just curious to see how much of the island it would actually include, compared to the status quo, considering TC said it would amount to a rock.

[Piratis]

2)Cyprus is already tiny, 18% to me seems the equivalent of living on a rock.

The 18% of TCs would live in the 18% of land, and the 82% of GCs in the 82% of land.

If you say that 18% of TCs sharing the 18% of land is too little, then imagine what it is for 82% of GCs sharing less than 82% of land. It is like telling me that 2 people in a 2 seat car would be too crowded, but 8 people in a 5 seat car would not.

Of course the other way is the 100% of Cypriots sharing the 100% of the island without any kind of divisions. But if there will be a division, then it should be at least a fair one.

[shahmaran]

Oh its pretty fair now, just count the rest for the people you have forced to leave the island over the years and we shall call it even steven

[Bananiot]

Lupisdiavoli, your arguments are dialectic (and I like this) but I have to point out to some flaws in the way you think. First, let me make it clear that I do believe that the enosis aspiration was legitimate. I think, however, that the people were betrayed by their leaders (the usual story) who did not inform them responsibly of the dangers and simply played games with enosis in a populist fashion that gained them sympathy.

With the benefit of hindsight I could argue, and this would of course be subjective, that we would have been better off without the armed struggle against the British. You mentioned India but one could mention numerous other countries that gained their independence around that time with almost minimum effort, relying principally on a political struggle.

Regarding the nationalist factor (interwoven with racism etc, because nationalists are many "bad" things at the same time) I would say that it blinded us as to think that we had all justice on our side. It did not allow us to think properly, to observe and analyse scientifically the effect of our actions. Had we been in a more sombre mind we would have realised very early that patriotism is the art, among else, of not confronting directly the interests of the big boys, those that are important in our area. We went as far as trying to scare the Yanks that we were going to give bases to the USSR. We were bluffing, trying to appear as big players. This pathetic attitude could only lead us to catastrophe. May be we are lucky we still have half of Cyprus. I know, I am being cynical, but here you are.

Your idea of enosis, as in unifying the island is quite novel and witty if I might say so. It can never be viewed as an alternative to real enosis (with another country) because my enosis involves both communities. All we need is a strong support from both communities and job done. Okay, before you say that I am a romantic, I realise that this is easy to say than done. The omens are not right and the momentum that was built in 2002-2003 is lost.

Yet, I suppose we need to dream on, especially my breed that thinks that there is only one option left for a solution that of BBF with both communities recognised as equal, despite the numerical difference (sorry Piratis, its never been about numbers). I remember in early 2003 when the opponents of Annan Plan were asking for special legislation from the Parliament for the Plan to pass only if it gained more than 75% of the popular vote. They were really scared that the Plan would pass. That was Plan no 3 which could have been negotiated to a much better version. Anyway, I am getting carried away. What I mean to say is that public opinion is changeable, given the right environment and the proper method to put things forward. Thus, what is the conventional wisdom now may change dramatically in the bleep of an eye. There might be hope yet.

[Piratis]

Oh its pretty fair now, just count the rest for the people you have forced to leave the island over the years and we shall call it even steven

Count. There are far more GCs living abroad than TCs.

Also the 18% is your percentage as it used to be. Now the TCs in Cyprus are far less than the 18% of Cypriots in Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Could someone give me a visual of what 18% of Cyprus would be like?

It is half of what the occupied areas are. I hope you will not say that 18% is too small, because that would mean that the 18% of TCs are too few.

If not then someone tell me what would happen to all the TC's currently living outside the 18%? Would they have to pack up and move to within the TC state?

Theoretically speaking always about this scenario:

In that case it will depend on the arrangements between the two states. E.g. there could be an agreement that 50.000 TCs can stay in the GC state as a minority and 50.000 GCs can stay in the TC state as a minority.
In this way the 18%-82% ratio will still be maintained.

Of course the best would be if everybody could live in his own home and property but unfortunately TCs reject this option.

Can you provide an example of where the borders are drawn up of a state in relation to population ratios?? Is that what they did in the USA which you keep referring to.

[zan]

Oh its pretty fair now, just count the rest for the people you have forced to leave the island over the years and we shall call it even steven

Count. There are far more GCs living abroad than TCs.

Also the 18% is your percentage as it used to be. Now the TCs in Cyprus are far less than the 18% of Cypriots in Cyprus.

With the great success story that the RoC is, that you keep telling us, and the embargoes imposed on the TCs, who had more reason to move away from the island? Your numbers are getting mixed up in your head my friend.

[Piratis]

Could someone give me a visual of what 18% of Cyprus would be like?

It is half of what the occupied areas are. I hope you will not say that 18% is too small, because that would mean that the 18% of TCs are too few.

If not then someone tell me what would happen to all the TC's currently living outside the 18%? Would they have to pack up and move to within the TC state?

Theoretically speaking always about this scenario:

In that case it will depend on the arrangements between the two states. E.g. there could be an agreement that 50.000 TCs can stay in the GC state as a minority and 50.000 GCs can stay in the TC state as a minority.
In this way the 18%-82% ratio will still be maintained.

Of course the best would be if everybody could live in his own home and property but unfortunately TCs reject this option.

Can you provide an example of where the borders are drawn up of a state in relation to population ratios?? Is that what they did in the USA which you keep referring to.

You didn't realize yet that in the 21st century you can not create a state of any size by ethnically cleansing the majority of the population and replacing it with others? How many years of living in an unrecognized pseudo state you need until you realize that?

So of course the are no examples of any percentages simply because what you demand is illegal and criminal.

Still, even if we become super compromising and accept what you have absolutely no right to demand, even then you have no sense of fairness and you are just trying to grab as much as you can using the Turkish army.

[Viewpoint]

Could someone give me a visual of what 18% of Cyprus would be like?

It is half of what the occupied areas are. I hope you will not say that 18% is too small, because that would mean that the 18% of TCs are too few.

If not then someone tell me what would happen to all the TC's currently living outside the 18%? Would they have to pack up and move to within the TC state?

Theoretically speaking always about this scenario:

In that case it will depend on the arrangements between the two states. E.g. there could be an agreement that 50.000 TCs can stay in the GC state as a minority and 50.000 GCs can stay in the TC state as a minority.
In this way the 18%-82% ratio will still be maintained.

Of course the best would be if everybody could live in his own home and property but unfortunately TCs reject this option.

Can you provide an example of where the borders are drawn up of a state in relation to population ratios?? Is that what they did in the USA which you keep referring to.

You didn't realize yet that in the 21st century you can not create a state of any size by ethnically cleansing the majority of the population and replacing it with others? How many years of living in an unrecognized pseudo state you need until you realize that?

So of course the are no examples of any percentages simply because what you demand is illegal and criminal.

Still, even if we become super compromising and accept what you have absolutely no right to demand, even then you have no sense of fairness and you are just trying to grab as much as you can using the Turkish army.

I accept to have GCs residing in the TC state so 18% will have to be expanded, history tells us that 29% was agreed between Cleridesand Denktas and even in the demonized AP. Lets have a 29% 71% split and allow everyone to live where they wish.

[Piratis]

We went over this before Viewpoint. You can have 18%, and if you accept to have a number of GCs in that 18% then an equal number of TCs will be allowed in the 82%, therefore restoring the balance.

Nobody agreed for 29%. It was just part of a proposal that not only was not agreed but on the contrary it was rejected in the most direct way possible.

By the way, if anybody would be allowed to settle wherever they wish, then whats the point of 2 states? Half of GCs could then move to north and what we would have would be 2 GC states.
So why not to have just one united Cyprus without stupid splits so each Cypriot will have the 100% of Cyprus?