Cyprus-Forum.com

[LENA]

Jesus lupusdaivoli…you sound like my English teacher here… Ok I have to admit that I agree with some of your “theories” but not with everything you said here…

By all means Lena your initial position and the rest did not offend me. On my turn I explain my dialectic approach, which was fully understood by you.

I can see why my reference bothered you somehow. Kifeas defined previously himself as greek-speaking. A definition I cannot conceive. The comment in this sense had nothing to do with any comparison of purity and the same. If you follow my sentence you can see that I also said “.being taught Greek in a proper manner instead of quoting around…” The latter encompass anyone and has nothing to do with origin.

First of all I am glad that finally one member here told me that he understood me and that he got my point straight from my first attempt to explain …yes I do understand why you put that in this way but didn’t thought that you had any problem to put down your thought with more clear way without making comparison that might sound weird to us, the “Greek speaking”. By saying that you didn’t expect much from a “Greek speaking” because he is not Greek, made me feel like you meant that you are superior because you are Greek and we …the Greek speaking we can even write our name right…(you know what I mean…not literally speaking)

As for us using the Greek speaking division is just to express that we are Cypriot…but we have a Greek background and our language is based on Greek. Nothing more nothing less. I personally don’t consider my self as Greek but I do not deny my background and my similarities with the Greeks.

Scientifically speaking you cannot determine people based solely on their language. This category used by some here is purely artificial. Let’s take the example of Cyprus. There are Turks and Greeks and some minorities. Definitions are of the essence.
Geographically speaking they are Cypriots.
Legally speaking there are those of TRNC and those of the Republic of Cyprus.
From a national point of view you have Turks, Greeks and the rest.

I agree you can not determine people exclusively from their language…so we are Cypriots. Because we do learn Greek but we have our own dialect. We are Greek speaking with Cypriot dialect. And the TC are Turkish speaking with Cypriot dialect. No Turks and no Greeks in Cyprus. Ok we do have lots of them but I mean the real nation is constituted by Cypriots. And legally speaking there is no TRNC. Geographically there is one and only Cyprus.

From there and on anybody can decide by himself which category is the most important to him. It is clearly a matter of consciousness, self-understanding, educational background, knowledge, culture. You may even have someone who knows nothing of a certain language and identifies himself with another state, region or nation.

I agree…I made my decision.

You added that we are all human beings and equal. That we are all humans is fine. On what base we are all equal? By nature? Legally speaking? In terms of social theory?
Everyday life proves otherwise. You can find everywhere hierarchy, classes, levels, positions etc.

Glad we agree that we are humans…and we are equal in the same matter. We have equal human rights, we all born from humans and we all going to die. We all have 2 hands, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 body by nature. We might have differences in colour, shape of the head, health problem etc…but we are equal in the matter of nature. According to social theory we are not equal … as you said everyday life proves that. But only in that matter.

The issue of equality arose from some streams of Ethics. Later it was received by religion and then regulated by law. Whatever the case may be there is a regulator. The philosopher, the priest, the legislator. What is my point? What is being regulated does not exist by nature. In philosophical terms it doesn’ t have a life of its own. Hence humans are not equal by nature. Equality comes to be an issue of bargain, balance of power, strength, class rate and goes on. It is a desire, a declaration which sounds nice to ears. Reality shows otherwise.

Disagree…humans are equal by nature…but when humans born the rest of us we put them in a category according to money, parents job, parents position in the society etc.

It is a hard thing to judge by yourself and not quoting others. Kifeas has no original thought of his own. This I know it will make him mad. But his views sound common, you can easily find them in the daily newspaper or in words of politicians.

I know is hard to judge by your self…but at least we have to try do that … not only here where is easy…almost nobody know anyone … but in real life as well…where is the hard part of that. As for Kifeas…is your opinion and I respect it.

What Kifeas fails to see is the reality of politics. My single argument was that foreign affairs, the relations among different states have nothing to do with ethics. History of thousand of years proves this. In every period of time. Provided you read history in cold blood manner independently of preconceptions, origin, taste, desire, ethics and so on.

Agree with that part! The rest of them I will leave them for Kifeas.

Lastly Babaniot proves me right. We could become friends or at least two humans talking eachother. The solid ground is that of reason. You don' t have to agree with the other. This doesn't lead to a point that you would like -as Kifeas- to extinguish the alternative opinion. It would become such a boring world to be. The issue from the start was one of theorytical approach. Kifeas made it personal. For me remains strictly on a theoretical level. That I find amusing joshing around it is just a matter of taste and temperament.

By the way lupusdiavoli…since you like him so much…his nick name is Bananiot…not Babaniot. And I agree that a good conversation start from a disagreement! If we all agree with everybody then this forum and generally life was going to be very boring.

[Kifeas]

By all means Lena your initial position and the rest did not offend me. On my turn I explain my dialectic approach, which was fully understood by you.

Dialectical approach! What a crap! You practice absolutely no dialectic means in your approach, and I doubt you even comprehend what dialecticism means!

Kifeas defined previously himself as greek-speaking. A definition I cannot conceive.

Really??? You cannot conceive what a Greek speaking Cypriot is?

Aluposdiavolos, I am sure you know what Alupos means in Cypriot Greek! He is someone just like you! Well, let me now also explain to you what a Greek speaking Cypriot is!

He is a Cypriot by nationality, i.e. a citizen of the sovereign, UN and EU member nation-state, recognised de jure by the entire world as the sole subject of international law legal and political entity of the entire geographic vicinity of the island called Cyprus, under the name of the Republic of Cyprus; or someone who descents from such a Cypriot citizen. He is a Cypriot due to his above capacity and a Greek speaking Cypriot due to the fact that his native (maternal) language is Greek, and or because he belongs to the Greek Cypriot community! I hope you can now conceive and comprehend what a Greek speaking Cypriot is, Alupos, so that you stop pouring your garbage and crap around the streets of this forum! Enough vomiting you have caused to me with your pretentious half-baked ideas!

What is it that you dispute, the fact that I am a Cypriot? Well, this is what my passport and ID say, and this is how the EU does recognise me and extents to me its EU citizenship!

What else do you dispute? The fact that I am a Greek speaking? I know better Greek than 95% of the citizens of Greece, and quite confident I know better than you think you do!

Therefore Alupos, cut the crap!

The comment in this sense had nothing to do with any comparison of purity and the same. If you follow my sentence you can see that I also said “.being taught Greek in a proper manner instead of quoting around…” The latter encompass anyone and has nothing to do with origin.

What a bunch of nonsense! Does anyone make sense of the above? Please let me know!

Scientifically speaking you cannot determine people based solely on their language. This category used by some here is purely artificial.

Another bunch of nonsense!
Which category used by some, here, is purely artificial?

Let’s take the example of Cyprus. There are Turks and Greeks and some minorities. Definitions are of the essence.
Geographically speaking they are Cypriots.
Legally speaking there are those of TRNC and those of the Republic of Cyprus.
From a national point of view you have Turks, Greeks and the rest.

Rubbish! More rubbish and even much more rubbish!

“Legally speaking there are those of TRNC and those of the Republic of Cyprus.”
You are clueless and laughable my friend! Based on which international law, there are those “of TRNC and those of the Republic of Cyprus?” Since when the “TRNC” constitutes a legal entity, a subject of international law, set aside to have citizens? And if this is the case (“legally” speaking,) why does the EU consider the entire territory of Cyprus to be an EU member state, including the Turkish speaking Cypriots that live now in the north, if only the Republic of Cyprus as a legal entity signed the treaty of accession and has become a member of the EU? And if (“legally” speaking) the case is as you make it, why did 70,000 TCs, much more than half of the Turkish speaking Cypriots, did obtain RoC documents (IDs, passports, etc,) after 2003 when the occupational forces allowed the to cross south?

“From a national point of view you have Turks, Greeks and the rest.”

More rubbish here! From a national point of view, you only have Cypriots. This is the accurate legal and political definition of the term “nationality” in today’s world! Perhaps you wanted to say that from an “ethnic” point of view, you have Turks, Greeks and the rest (or Greek Cypriots, Turkish Cypriots, etc,) but this is not what you have said! I suggest you open some dictionary to learn the proper meaning of the terms you use! The term nationality -from an international legal and political perspective, does no longer equate with ethnicity, i.e. common racial, cultural, linguistic and perhaps religious characteristics.

From there and on anybody can decide by himself which category is the most important to him. It is clearly a matter of consciousness, self-understanding, educational background, knowledge, culture. You may even have someone who knows nothing of a certain language and identifies himself with another state, region or nation.

You added that we are all human beings and equal. That we are all humans is fine. On what base we are all equal? By nature? Legally speaking? In terms of social theory?
Everyday life proves otherwise. You can find everywhere hierarchy, classes, levels, positions etc.

The issue of equality arose from some streams of Ethics. Later it was received by religion and then regulated by law. Whatever the case may be there is a regulator. The philosopher, the priest, the legislator. What is my point? What is being regulated does not exist by nature. In philosophical terms it doesn’ t have a life of its own. Hence humans are not equal by nature. Equality comes to be an issue of bargain, balance of power, strength, class rate and goes on. It is a desire, a declaration which sounds nice to ears. Reality shows otherwise.

It is a hard thing to judge by yourself and not quoting others. Kifeas has no original thought of his own. This I know it will make him mad. But his views sound common, you can easily find them in the daily newspaper or in words of politicians.

Even more crap! I suppose you have not realised that here we talk politics and law as they pertain to a national and international issue, the Cyprus problem; and NOT your loose and confused anarchist philosophical voyeurisms and anxieties!

[Bananiot]

You know, Kifeas has argued, in another thread I think, that all politicians are corrupt and that this is a universal phenomenon. So, perhaps he does after all abide by the idea that there is a serious mismatch between politics and ethics. Yet, because of his personal experience in 1974, he would rather close his eyes and perceive a fairer world, where ethics take centre stage and regulate peoples' behaviour (and greed). Thus, it probably is your world, lupusdiavoli, turned upside down.

These issues have been dealt with by the great philosophers and great minds and being original is not always a big deal. What constitutes a big deal is to appreciate the great endeavour certain minds have undergone, to do thinking for all of us poor souls who deal with minor things, such as fighting in fora and calling each other names.

After reading accusations of the kind "imimathis" i.e. semi literate etc and knowing the impact this can have on people, I thought that there must be a reason for this behaviour. You know, sometimes the accusation itself lends an air of superiority to the accuser (in his mind at least and perhaps in the general audience's mind, in our case the readers). Especially, when the accuser chooses fancy words, that tend to make a good impact on the unsuspecting.

Kifeas has picked a fight with anyone that disagrees with him on the Cyprus issue. He is so quick to move from the descriptive to the normative and hence he almost always makes a mess of his credibility to debate in a meaningful way. Many times he has hallucinations of the type "nobody takes you seriously" thinking that the alternative is true, that everybody takes him seriously. He therefore became a menacing bull when lupusdiavoli barged in and almost destroyed the world he built in this forum.

[Piratis]

Hence humans are not equal by nature. Equality comes to be an issue of bargain, balance of power, strength, class rate and goes on.

Sure, but first and above all you need the will to gain that equality. If you are a masochist and a defeatist then non of the other factors would matter.

In the case of Cyprus, Greek Cypriots although being the weaker side, still are better off in terms of standards of livng than both TCs and Turks. If we capitulate, as you demand, not only we would make it much more difficult for us to regain what we lost when the balance of power will change, but also we will make our present lives worst by increasing our problems, while at the same time we will be reducing the problems of our enemies.

So trying to convince us that there are no ethics etc, doesn't change the one and only option we have: To continue fighting for our rights.

[free_cyprus]

Piratis
what power are you talking about cyprus has no power we cypriots just do as we are told and thats the tragic part it all