Cyprus-Forum.com

[shahmaran]

None of what you just posted is relevant facts Shah. Do you accept official independent figures or anecdotes? You post no facts here, just vague remarks about what the people you know say.

FACT: TCs were 18% in 1960 when the first agreement for independence was signed. Therefore, 80/20 is more than fair. You agree one minute, but then your greedy instincts kick in and you want more! You want more, by trying to pretend you were 30% or something; this means you are trying to grab more land in my book for your illegal state!

Find me one independent, verifiable source that states TCs were 30% or even close to that, at anytime during the 1960s?

Unfortunately for you my friend, not all the hard facts you need are found in the pages of the UN or places like it, they are usually barely touching the reality on the ground, who am i going to believe, the UN and the people here, or the people who actually lived through it day by day?

Of course the facts and figures have their places too but alone they are purely aesthetic and statistical...

Trust me man, i own more land in Cyprus than i could use, and i will not loose a single inch of it under any agreement so i personally do not get affected either way, i am just trying to point out the fact that what you consider to be "more than fair" seems to be rooted into a very distorted version of reality from where I'm sitting...

[Simon]

[quote]Unfortunately for you my friend, not all the hard facts you need are found in the pages of the UN or places like it, they are usually barely touching the reality on the ground, who am i going to believe, the UN and the people here, or the people who actually lived through it day by day? [/quote]

It is impossible for anybody to negotiate with you, when you take such positions, I hope you realise this. What does any of the above have to do with the official figures that were published in 1960? I suppose the UN, British, CIA etc etc figures are all wrong because of your anecdotes. Do we base a solution on your anecdotes and not mine? Or independent figures? This is just nonsense Shah. Did the people you live with count day by day how many people left, and calculate the actual effect this had on your population percentages? Did they then submit this to the UN for analysis and scrutiny, so as to be verified?

[quote]Of course the facts and figures have their places too but alone they are purely aesthetic and statistical... [/quote]

What is this? Code for: Facts have there place, but we choose to ignore them when it comes to negotiating solutions.

[quote]Trust me man, i own more land in Cyprus than i could use, and i will not loose a single inch of it under any agreement so i personally do not get affected either way, i am just trying to point out the fact that what you consider to be "more than fair" seems to be rooted into a very distorted version of reality from where I'm sitting...[/quote]

What you own is irrelevant. If the land is legally yours, then you will not lose it. Spare a thought for those GCs that have lost theirs, if you have the time that is What I consider to be 'more than fair' is based on facts. Facts that you have not once disputed with evidence; and you say I have a 'distorted version of reality.' Really is pathetic.

[shahmaran]

Whatever Simon, you bring before me a Greek sites with figures that i think do not make sense given the circumstances at the time, like i said the UN does not have all the facts on the ground and neither does the British, plus every time i used Turkish websites to argue my case they were quickly dismissed as fabricated propaganda material, so face it, no one here wants to hear the truth if it doesn't suit them, and for a solution such as the one proposed by you to work, it has to be rooted within the truth of the matter -if its ever going to be a FAIR solution- but since we cannot agree with anything I'm happy to stay as we are and eventually we WILL be recognized and that is a FACT!

So I don't want this because i desperately want partition due to some secret ethnic hate, but because i rather have partition than have to rely on dodgy "facts" such as yours... Plus i only brought up my lands because you were blaming me for being greedy and wanting more land, but its funny you say that since your "solution" relies up on taking more land from us according to your perception of the matter and idea of what "fair" would be...

Did you know that more graves were found around Lefke (where i am from) after the Turks had intervened, they were empty but they definitely were dug up ready to be used, so there is another fact that you will never find in your pages of "solid facts", and its a fact that truly portrays the motive behind some GCs!

Face it my friend, there is absolutely no other excuse behind gathering entire villages together, only to machine gun them ALL into mass graves, if not for ethnic cleansing, because this is definately NOT war!

So, once you have been labeled with such a crime, it is absolutely preposterous for you to come and try to negotiate land ownership through percentages and claim that you are trying to be "fair"!




ps. sort our your quoting skills, its really confusing

[Simon]

Shah, this is the last time I shall reply, because seriously, I don't know how old you are, but it is like trying to debate with a 5 year old. How can you negotiate anything, partition or unification, if you base your views on anecdotes, rumours and speculation; and dismiss official figures like you do? Do you understand this is an impossible position? I suggest, it is an impossible position you purposely take up, so as there can be no solution and so you can illegally keep all our land. Your comments and your tone in your post above clearly suggest this.

Sources:

http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/21.htm - Source they used was US Library of Congress

http://www.vast2006.org/About_Cyprus.html

http://ec.europa.eu/education/policies/ ... /cy_en.pdf - which states: "The only census covering the whole population dates back to 1960. It found 77.1% GCs and 18.2% TCs"

http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pag ... 9233785265

Including the two websites posted previously, I could go on and on but I know it will not make a difference to your small brain. You have heard your anecdotes, that is enough for you. I shall stick to official figures, that are displayed everywhere. You dispute this with what your Grandad told you.

[quote]Whatever Simon, you bring before me a Greek sites with figures that i think do not make sense given the circumstances at the time, like i said the UN does not have all the facts on the ground and neither does the British, plus every time i used Turkish websites to argue my case they were quickly dismissed as fabricated propaganda material, so face it, no one here wants to hear the truth if it doesn't suit them, and for a solution such as the one proposed by you to work, it has to be rooted within the truth of the matter -if its ever going to be a FAIR solution- but since we cannot agree with anything I'm happy to stay as we are and eventually we WILL be recognized and that is a FACT! [/quote]

The 18% is based on OFFICIAL figures! How long does it take for this to sink in? It does not matter what website they are pulled from, I repeat, these are OFFICIAL figures! No other major census of the whole island was ever done in the 1960s, so anything you say is merely speculation. You have no proof, no facts, nothing to support your arguments whatsoever.

Yes, Yes, nobody has all the facts except your Turkish websites that say you are 30%. The whole world who quotes these figures have got it all wrong, only Turkey knows. You do not want to hear the truth, you are right, I have posted facts, but each one of your posts is another rant with nothing meaningful. What I say is not rooted in the truth because of the speculation of your family and friends?!! I ask again:

I suppose the UN, British, CIA etc etc figures are all wrong because of your anecdotes? Do we base a solution on your anecdotes and not mine? Or independent figures? This is just nonsense Shah. Did the people you live with count day by day how many people left, and calculate the actual effect this had on your population percentages? Did they then submit this to the UN for analysis and scrutiny, so as to be verified?

I am trying not to insult you, but do you know how stupid you sound?

[quote]if its ever going to be a FAIR solution- but since we cannot agree with anything I'm happy to stay as we are and eventually we WILL be recognized and that is a FACT! [/quote]

Is it a surprise we cannot agree on anything? You are making sure of it! You do not even accept official figures that are accepted by the world! How can negotiations ever occur with such people? Disputing is easy, any moron can do it, showing proof for your argument is where the value is. Your argument has no value.

[quote]So I don't want this because i desperately want partition due to some secret ethnic hate, but because i rather have partition than have to rely on dodgy "facts" such as yours... Plus i only brought up my lands because you were blaming me for being greedy and wanting more land, but its funny you say that since your "solution" relies up on taking more land from us according to your perception of the matter and idea of what "fair" would be... [/quote]

All babble until the part 'dodgy "facts" such as yours.' I thought that required special attention. You would be so funny if I didn't think you were actually serious. Try official census figures. Not my facts, the world's facts. I accused you of being greedy because that is exactly what you are! Making out TCs were more to grab more land, with absolutely NO evidence to back it up. NONE! True or false? You will fall flat on your face one day, and I cannot wait. Us taking more land from you? It is not your land!!!!! You stole it! Shah, please don't make me struggle, are you really this thick? Ever heard of 200,000 GCs forced out? Oh but you do not care about that do you, because that does not affect you.

[quote]Did you know that more graves were found around Lefke (where i am from) after the Turks had intervened, they were empty but they definitely were dug up ready to be used, so there is another fact that you will never find in your pages of "solid facts", and its a fact that truly portrays the motive behind some GCs! [/quote]

Bringing that up again Want to go all through that again Tell me, how many GCs died and how many TCs died? Tell me how many GCs died in the invasion? Tell me how many GCs are still missing? Both sides had casualties, this is irrelevant to the official census. 'Some' being the operative word by the way. Like I said, its like debating with a 5 year old

[quote]Face it my friend, there is absolutely no other excuse behind gathering entire villages together, only to machine gun them ALL into mass graves, if not for ethnic cleansing, because this is definately NOT war! [/quote]

Again I ask, how many died each side? We had years to ethnically cleanse you, and only hundreds die? Hundreds of GCs die also? Save the shit for someone who buys it. Again, not relevant facts in light of official census.

[quote]So, once you have been labeled with such a crime, it is absolutely preposterous for you to come and try to negotiate land ownership through percentages and claim that you are trying to be "fair"! [/quote]

Why, do you live in the past? If so, I can equally say for all your crimes, you do not deserve 1 inch of Cyprus. You cannot talk about what is fair because of your enormous human rights violations, that not only dominate your past, but the VERY HERE AND NOW. Therefore I shall not negotiate one inch, I will not stop until every last Turk is gone from Cyprus! I could say this applying your attitude. But see where that leads? Hence, re-read my earlier post regarding; proportionality, fairness, and ever lingering chance of War.

[quote]ps. sort our your quoting skills, its really confusing [/quote]

Aww, I'm not surprised it confuses you, it wouldn't take much.

[shahmaran]

Simon, i am truly sorry but you are a fucking idiot who somehow manages to come across to be a logical and reasonable person at the first sight (good work by the way you almost got me), not once i have disagreed with the %18, i just suggested that it sounds unrealistic given the circumstances of the time when people were emigrating from the island, but the figures seem to show that our numbers were somehow increasing (!!)

However, i personally don't think it makes any difference BECAUSE we cannot agree on the past, therefore your understanding of fair is different to mine within the frame of your ridiculous proposal of a solution, i think "fair" is for you to shut the fuck up and deal with whatever you have left of Cyprus and be grateful that you still got it, because i also don't think you deserve it, us compensating for the properties is my understanding of what would be "more than fair" which i can deal with, you getting me?!

And what crimes are you talking about? The violence started in the 60s, and Fuckarios had clearly stated that he would succeed bringing Enosis without shedding a drop of blood, so the long term plans for deporting the Turks from the island had long been executed and insidiously followed through by many, which is probably what gave place for the violence, shame not every Greek was as patient as he was, or you could have maybe succeeded.

Instead now you are stuck with a few TCs and thousands of Turks, and trust me no one is worried about going to war again if it ever came to it...

And last but not least, for the love of god, please learn to use the freaking Quote button properly, because it is extremely frustrating to spend ages to decipher your page long posts only to have to disappointingly reply to your bollocks of an argument!

[Simon]

I did say I wasn't going to reply, but the bollocks that has just come from your direction means that I cannot resist:

[quote]Simon, i am truly sorry but you are a fucking idiot who somehow manages to come across to be a logical and reasonable person at the first sight (good work by the way you almost got me), not once i have disagreed with the %18, i just suggested that it sounds unrealistic given the circumstances of the time when people were emigrating from the island, but the figures seem to show that our numbers were somehow increasing (!!) [/quote]

You fucking stupid prick, you say that not once have you disagreed with 18%, but then say the figure is unrealistic? What a fucking prat? You don't disagree, then call it unrealistic? What is that then if not disagreeing? You said the UN etc was not on the ground etc, what is that if not implying disagreement? You said we cannot agree on anything; what is that if not implying you disagree on the population figures? You said I posted figures from Greek websites, and therefore you are sceptical. What is that if not implying disagreement? You are stupid beyond belief! Maybe all the bollocks you were fed regarding how many TCs left Cyprus was not correct? Maybe it was not as bad as your propaganda bull-shit made out, and that is why your numbers increased, ever thought of that? Maybe TCs were having loads of sex without contraception and had a population increase. By the way, can you show me where it says your population increased?

[quote]However, i personally don't think it makes any difference BECAUSE we cannot agree on the past, therefore your understanding of fair is different to mine within the frame of your ridiculous proposal of a solution, i think "fair" is for you to shut the fuck up and deal with whatever you have left of Cyprus and be grateful that you still got it, because i also don't think you deserve it, us compensating for the properties is my understanding of what would be "more than fair" which i can deal with, you getting me?! [/quote]

We cannot agree on the past you say? Hence, I proposed partition. My understanding of fair is different to yours, yes, you are right, yours is:

"i think "fair" is for you to shut the fuck up and deal with whatever you have left of Cyprus and be grateful that you still got it, because i also don't think you deserve it"

That shows you to be a barbarian, an animal of the lowest form, no sense of justice, fairness - nothing. Just a land-grabbing wanker. What goes around comes around.

[quote]And what crimes are you talking about? The violence started in the 60s, and Fuckarios had clearly stated that he would succeed bringing Enosis without shedding a drop of blood, so the long term plans for deporting the Turks from the island had long been executed and insidiously followed through by many, which is probably what gave place for the violence, shame not every Greek was as patient as he was, or you could have maybe succeeded. [/quote]

What crimes? Well since we are talking about the past, why not start with the Ottoman Empire? Violence started in the 60s? Who killed more, Turks or Greeks? Oh sorry, the violence was all Greek violence was it? You mention Makarios, but it was never Turkey's intention to partition Cyprus though was it? Well before the 60s this wasn't their intention, no? TMT did not kill TCs to increase the animosity, no? Do you count the TCs that died because of TMT?

[quote]Instead now you are stuck with a few TCs and thousands of Turks, and trust me no one is worried about going to war again if it ever came to it... [/quote]

Oh don't worry, we know that. We know how much Turkey loves War.

[quote]And last but not least, for the love of god, please learn to use the freaking Quote button properly, because it is extremely frustrating to spend ages to decipher your page long posts only to have to disappointingly reply to your bollocks of an argument![/quote]

Says the person who uses stories from Grandpa rather than facts. Regarding the quotes, I have two words you can quote: TOUGH SHIT!

[shahmaran]

dude im not even going to bother, either correct your bloody posts or just give it up, as much as i think you are a right prat, i still take the time to at least make my posts readable for your dumb ass...

[Simon]

It is very readable. You cannot see the [quote] at the beginning and end of each paragraph, when I am quoting? The actual quotation box does not work on my posts for some reason, and frankly, I don't really care because it is still very readable; unless retarded pricks like you have nothing left to argue, and therefore use it as an excuse.

If Admin wants to tell me why the quotation box is not working, then he/she is free to do so.

[shahmaran]

well don't you think, Simon, that something might be wrong on your side since out of the hundreds who use this place it only doesn't work with you , but you blame the forum?

its funny since i see similar patterns of thought in your arguments as well...

[Simon]

[quote] well don't you think, Simon, that something might be wrong on your side since out of the hundreds who use this place it only doesn't work with you , but you blame the forum? [/quote]

Well that is really typical of your pathetically inept arguments. Point out where I blamed the forum please???? I asked if Admin wants to tell me why the quotation box is not working. That is different from blaming the forum, is it not? I asked as maybe he/she has knowledge of why? Whether it is a problem with my side or the forum's, as it is obviously not working. By the way, the quotation box used to work with my posts, so I do not know what has changed. Maybe he has encountered such problems in the past, and does know?