Cyprus-Forum.com

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

GET A ROOM!

[LENA]

GET A ROOM!

.....

[zan]

Birkibrisli wrote:

I could take most of your sentences one by one and argue with them individually,Zan,but I know it would be a waste of time. You choose to believe that I have some sort of agenda I keep pushing.Nothing I say,short of "you are right,Zan,in everything you say" will change that.

I have been saying this over and over: We keep going the way we are and the result is certain assimilation into the Turkish world and loss of our unique identity as TCs...Or we can be true to ourselves and our motherland,and join the rest of our compatriots on mutually agreeable terms,and preserve our identity and dignity as TCs for eternity...You have declared yourself for certain assimilation,and you don't need me to achieve that end...I have declared myself for preserving my dignity and integrity as TCs,and I need you and as many of us as possible to achieve that end...That is my tragedy...You have won...Your will will prevail...I will have to be satisfied with being a very small minority,not exactly welcome but tolerated by the majority of GCs, in my own country...I will blame you and the rest of those gutless wonders parading as TCs in the pariah state of TRNC...In time I might forgive you for your role in our community's cultural genocide,but I will never forget it...

I say you have an agenda Bir because you make a general statement about what you really want and how you feel but then your day to day activities do not back them up. The fine detail that I pay attention to in almost everything I do shows differently to your general statement. Your comments are unbalanced, biased and unfair as I have pointed out many times. You can afford the excuses for the RoC but dismiss the same for the TRNC and more importantly the TC people. I have no problem with your views being different to mine and think it very healthy in a democratic society but then when the goose and the gander are treated differently then the problems start.

I have heard what you have said many times and can see where your fears lye but that future is not at all predetermined, as I have said to you on many occasions as well. Just like the inequality that you keep saying we can avoid in the European courts, if we are allowed to progress and do it maturely and pay special attention to detail, then there is no reason why we as TCs cannot achieve the same status. The remarks made about if assimilation is to be, then we choose the Turks over the Greeks is in a do or die situation and again not predetermined. I can understand some on this forum using it to try and scare the pants off us so we capitulate and give them everything that they don’t deserve but why from you. It is not my fault that you cannot trust such a task to us as TCs and you feel we are incompetent for such a task but I feel we have the ability and the will if the RoC continues in its present stance. If that stance does not change then we have no choice but to do that and if we are continuously held back through embargoes and the right to exist then Turkey is our only choice. Please stop ignoring this fact and making out that the RoC is a place that we can flourish because it simply is not…Again I feel I have to reiterate “In its present stance” for those of you that are looking for an excuse to ignore the rest of what I have written. What exactly are the Turks going to import into the TRNC/KKTC that is going to change us so much that we will have to guard against it. The language? The blood? The music? The food?…….need I go on?


Again you insult every single TC that lives in the TRNC/KKTC by claiming that you, that is living thousands of miles away in relative safety and comfort, are the only one with integrity and dignity. The rest of us have all sold our souls to the Turkish Devil. How arrogant is that. I realise that you meant it for me but…………………………………………..


I have won nothing. What I am doing is speaking the mind of thousands upon thousands of Turkish Cypriots. It is they that have been pushed into a corner and they that have chosen a route in which I am a bit player. The people spoke by voting for the Annan plan and voting out Denktas but have come to realise that nothing is enough for the RoC. Can this then put a further thought in the TCs minds of “when will these people stop wanting more. We give up our sovereignty to get unification but then what else will they want when we have no power at all to stop them”. You want people to blame then blame us all because we stand proud and tall and say we shall not be ignored and bullied any more. You have the RoC at your disposal.

[BirKibrisli]

I have heard what you have said many times and can see where your fears lye but that future is not at all predetermined, as I have said to you on many occasions as well. Just like the inequality that you keep saying we can avoid in the European courts, if we are allowed to progress and do it maturely and pay special attention to detail, then there is no reason why we as TCs cannot achieve the same status. The remarks made about if assimilation is to be, then we choose the Turks over the Greeks is in a do or die situation and again not predetermined. I can understand some on this forum using it to try and scare the pants off us so we capitulate and give them everything that they don’t deserve but why from you. It is not my fault that you cannot trust such a task to us as TCs and you feel we are incompetent for such a task but I feel we have the ability and the will if the RoC continues in its present stance. If that stance does not change then we have no choice but to do that and if we are continuously held back through embargoes and the right to exist then Turkey is our only choice. Please stop ignoring this fact and making out that the RoC is a place that we can flourish because it simply is not…Again I feel I have to reiterate “In its present stance” for those of you that are looking for an excuse to ignore the rest of what I have written. What exactly are the Turks going to import into the TRNC/KKTC that is going to change us so much that we will have to guard against it. The language? The blood? The music? The food?…….need I go on?

You are making me doubt my ability to write clearly and precisely,Zan...
I keep saying the same thing in different guises but you refuse to understand one crucial point:On one hand you have Turkey with her 70 Million plus population,and her insular but very aggresive political and social values,who has very little respect for diversity or for real democratic principles...On the other side you have 700,000(?) GCs,part of
the Western world,part of the EU and with a fledgeling but accomplished democratic system...Lets be generous and say we can round up 100,000 real TCs (including those of us who might return from exile)...On which side will they have a fighting chance of maintaining their unique cultural identity as TCs???Here comes the crunch: it is presicely because we speak the same language and follow the same religion,and share other traditions like the music and certain other customs that we have NO CHANCE of maintaining our identity if we live with people from Turkey...
You have to get this point...It is because we speak a different language,follow a different religion,have certain customs which are different than the GCs which gives us the fighting chance of maintaining our TC identity if we are living with the GCs in a democratic state...If you don't get this point or do not agree with my premise than there is no way you can really understand where I am coming from...And also,if you think/believe that we are really only Turks who happened to live in Cyprus unchanged for hundreds of years, and we will lose very little by embracing our Turkishness totally,there will be little point in having a similar discussion with you ever again...We will have to agree that our positions are totally opposed,and that is that...

[BirKibrisli]

GET A ROOM!

.....

Ignore him,Lena mou...He is only jealous,and have one track mind... ...

[Natty]

And sorry about OZ...It's short/slang for Australia

And there's me thinking you were talking about the land of Oz Bir, you know where the great wizard lives, and where there's a long yellow brick road..

Although I wonder why they call Australia Oz? Unless it literally is the Land of Oz with a freakishly long yellow brick road, Wicked witches and a lost girl walking around with a dog, a Tin Man, a scarecrow and a lion that has defied evolution and walks on his hind legs?? Because if that’s the case I’m booking a ticket to Australia right now!

(I think I'm still stuck in Wizard of Oz Mode when it comes to this forum...I have Kikapu to thank for that I believe.. )

Australia is the land where a great Wizard lives,and has a long yellow brick road...Let me know when you are coming,Natty,I'll pick you up from the airport. Together with the scarecrow,the lion and the Tin man...

I new it! Well it seems that Australia is where I belong.. Just let me find out what the Tin Man, the Scarecrow and The lion are up to and I shall book our tickets as soon as is possible! Just remember though, after you pick us up, to drop us off somewhere in the Bush, so we can get ourselves lost, kill the wicked witch, follow the yellow brick road and finally call upon the all knowing, and all wise Wizard of Oz!

"We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz..."

[BirKibrisli]

And sorry about OZ...It's short/slang for Australia

And there's me thinking you were talking about the land of Oz Bir, you know where the great wizard lives, and where there's a long yellow brick road..

Although I wonder why they call Australia Oz? Unless it literally is the Land of Oz with a freakishly long yellow brick road, Wicked witches and a lost girl walking around with a dog, a Tin Man, a scarecrow and a lion that has defied evolution and walks on his hind legs?? Because if that’s the case I’m booking a ticket to Australia right now!

(I think I'm still stuck in Wizard of Oz Mode when it comes to this forum...I have Kikapu to thank for that I believe.. )

Australia is the land where a great Wizard lives,and has a long yellow brick road...Let me know when you are coming,Natty,I'll pick you up from the airport. Together with the scarecrow,the lion and the Tin man...

I new it! Well it seems that Australia is where I belong.. Just let me find out what the Tin Man, the Scarecrow and The lion are up to and I shall book our tickets as soon as is possible! Just remember though, after you pick us up, to drop us off somewhere in the Bush, so we can get ourselves lost, kill the wicked witch, follow the yellow brick road and finally call upon the all knowing, and all wise Wizard of Oz!

"We're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz..."

No problem,Natty...There is plenty of bush around where I live...You might need a good compass to get out the bush after you kill the wicked witch though.The yellow brick road is not as visible as it used to be...

[zan]

I have heard what you have said many times and can see where your fears lye but that future is not at all predetermined, as I have said to you on many occasions as well. Just like the inequality that you keep saying we can avoid in the European courts, if we are allowed to progress and do it maturely and pay special attention to detail, then there is no reason why we as TCs cannot achieve the same status. The remarks made about if assimilation is to be, then we choose the Turks over the Greeks is in a do or die situation and again not predetermined. I can understand some on this forum using it to try and scare the pants off us so we capitulate and give them everything that they don’t deserve but why from you. It is not my fault that you cannot trust such a task to us as TCs and you feel we are incompetent for such a task but I feel we have the ability and the will if the RoC continues in its present stance. If that stance does not change then we have no choice but to do that and if we are continuously held back through embargoes and the right to exist then Turkey is our only choice. Please stop ignoring this fact and making out that the RoC is a place that we can flourish because it simply is not…Again I feel I have to reiterate “In its present stance” for those of you that are looking for an excuse to ignore the rest of what I have written. What exactly are the Turks going to import into the TRNC/KKTC that is going to change us so much that we will have to guard against it. The language? The blood? The music? The food?…….need I go on?

You are making me doubt my ability to write clearly and precisely,Zan...
I keep saying the same thing in different guises but you refuse to understand one crucial point:On one hand you have Turkey with her 70 Million plus population,and her insular but very aggresive political and social values,who has very little respect for diversity or for real democratic principles...On the other side you have 700,000(?) GCs,part of
the Western world,part of the EU and with a fledgeling but accomplished democratic system...Lets be generous and say we can round up 100,000 real TCs (including those of us who might return from exile)...On which side will they have a fighting chance of maintaining their unique cultural identity as TCs???Here comes the crunch: it is presicely because we speak the same language and follow the same religion,and share other traditions like the music and certain other customs that we have NO CHANCE of maintaining our identity if we live with people from Turkey...
You have to get this point...It is because we speak a different language,follow a different religion,have certain customs which are different than the GCs which gives us the fighting chance of maintaining our TC identity if we are living with the GCs in a democratic state...If you don't get this point or do not agree with my premise than there is no way you can really understand where I am coming from...And also,if you think/believe that we are really only Turks who happened to live in Cyprus unchanged for hundreds of years, and we will lose very little by embracing our Turkishness totally,there will be little point in having a similar discussion with you ever again...We will have to agree that our positions are totally opposed,and that is that...

You ability to express your self is fine Bir. It is your inability to understand that we are not living with 70,000,000 Turks. We are living with a hand full of them. I will not go into numbers because we have argued enough about that and have not agreed so we will take it from there. What ever happens we will always be INFLUENCED by those millions in Turkey. You are thousands of miles away and I bet still have felt the changes in music.......etc. Are you trying to say that the GCs will protect us from this influence? If you are then that is the very point that I have been making in which we will be assimilated into Greek culture. I am not Greek. I have nothing against Greek culture or have any problem with it except the Hellenism. The only way in which your idealistic TC culture can ever be SAVED is if we outlaw anything Turkish from ever entering the shores of Cyprus. Ban satellite TV and newspapers. Stop visits to Turkey. The Cypriot cultures of old that you so crave were only because travel and any form of contact were slow if not impossible. It still filtered through though and we now have a modern TC. They will continue to evolve and there is nothing you can do to stop it. I don't know if you can't really see this fact or are just trying to ignore it through your exotic dreaming but never the less it is a fact. What is becoming increasingly clearer is that, if you do understand what I have just said, that you would prefer to be assimilated into Greek culture rather than the Turkish one and are just not being honest with us. The TRNC/KKTC has been living with this handful of mainland Turks for 40 years now and our cultures are still intact. We have evolved in natural terms no more than we would have. Why do you assume then that just the recognition or a TC administered state would change anything. We speak better Turkish and have educated our children to Turkish standards and are coming up in the world. We do not rely on a couple of educated people that can read to translate for us anymore. Your backward TC has bitten the dust long live the new generation. I do not believe in kismet. If you want, you do. As long as we can clear up some of the problems that Turkey has and those that have been imported to Cyprus then there is no reason why we cannot be proud TCs with our own distinct ways all be it with Turkey as an influence.

[LENA]

GET A ROOM!

.....

Ignore him,Lena mou...He is only jealous,and have one track mind... ...

Thats what I did Birkibrisli mou!! x

[BirKibrisli]

You ability to express your self is fine Bir. It is your inability to understand that we are not living with 70,000,000 Turks. We are living with a hand full of them. I will not go into numbers because we have argued enough about that and have not agreed so we will take it from there. What ever happens we will always be INFLUENCED by those millions in Turkey. You are thousands of miles away and I bet still have felt the changes in music.......etc. Are you trying to say that the GCs will protect us from this influence? If you are then that is the very point that I have been making in which we will be assimilated into Greek culture. I am not Greek. I have nothing against Greek culture or have any problem with it except the Hellenism. The only way in which your idealistic TC culture can ever be SAVED is if we outlaw anything Turkish from ever entering the shores of Cyprus. Ban satellite TV and newspapers. Stop visits to Turkey. The Cypriot cultures of old that you so crave were only because travel and any form of contact were slow if not impossible. It still filtered through though and we now have a modern TC. They will continue to evolve and there is nothing you can do to stop it. I don't know if you can't really see this fact or are just trying to ignore it through your exotic dreaming but never the less it is a fact. What is becoming increasingly clearer is that, if you do understand what I have just said, that you would prefer to be assimilated into Greek culture rather than the Turkish one and are just not being honest with us. The TRNC/KKTC has been living with this handful of mainland Turks for 40 years now and our cultures are still intact. We have evolved in natural terms no more than we would have. Why do you assume then that just the recognition or a TC administered state would change anything. We speak better Turkish and have educated our children to Turkish standards and are coming up in the world. We do not rely on a couple of educated people that can read to translate for us anymore. Your backward TC has bitten the dust long live the new generation. I do not believe in kismet. If you want, you do. As long as we can clear up some of the problems that Turkey has and those that have been imported to Cyprus then there is no reason why we cannot be proud TCs with our own distinct ways all be it with Turkey as an influence.

I will just make some comments on the points I have put in bold,if that is OK with you Zan? You will get my drift by the end...

Of course I have felt the changes in music and everthing else.Remember that I have been visiting Turkey every couple of years,and I was married to a Turkish lady for 7 years...My identity is Turkish Cypriot,Zan...I have earned my living as a Turkish/English translator and interpreter for years.
I watch the Maraton (football show) and support Fenerbahche.I follow closely the Popstar A la Turca competition (I want Erhan to win...I really loved Tamer but he was eliminated last week so I was sad...)I watch yabanci damat and Iki aile series...and listen to Ebru gundes,Orhan Gencebay,Ibrahim Tatlises,Zeki Muren,Zulfu Livaneli and Barish mancho tapes,plus many oldies like Nilufer,Sezen Aksu, Yashar Ozel,Tanju Okan, Cem karaca,Edip akbayram,Emel Sayin,Ozdemir Erdogan,and new ones like Murat gogebakan,Yildiz tilbe,Mustafa Sandal,Serdar ortach and of course Tarkan...This is part and parcel of being of Turkish origin ethnically.There is nothing wrong with these influences or reading the likes of Orhan pamuk,Aziz nesin,Yasar kemal,Fakir Baykurt,Nazim Hikmet,
Ahmet hamdi Tanpinar,Yahya Kemal etc etc...I would never give these up in a million years...This is not what I am talking about...What we are risking is our significant differences in culture which comes from living in Cyprus,being Cypriots,having spend centuries mixing with our Cypriot compatriots of other origins...What we stand to lose is our own TC literature,TC food,TC music,TC way of looking at life including the relaxed way of practising our religion,our sense of humour,our democratic and progressive world view....but above all we are risking our right of self government and self determination...As long as we can pick and choose which parts of the Turkish culture we want to maintain and which parts to ignore,we are doing fine...But if the Turkish culture is allowed to decend on us like a bulldozer,we will be soon flattened out culturally and all aspect of our Cypriotness will disappear.The effect will be subliminal and subconscious...We cannot withstand the full force of the Turkish cultural and political onslought...Our uniqueness will be extinguished whatever we do...On the other hand if we are with our GC brothers our different language and religion plus the other Turkish -influenced differences will enable us to maintain our unique TC culture...I don't know how else to put it all.So I will stop here...We will cross swords again on other threads I am sure...