Cyprus-Forum.com

[pitsilos]

There is no Cypriot nation and there has never been one. Forcing us into this sythetic nationality is no different than trying to peel the skin off a living person and it is the most severe violation of our human rights that can not and will not accepted.

if i was you i wouldn't be advicing bir about making ludicrous statements...

[zan]

You do not want to live in fear and intimidation...Unless it is from the Greek side. You see the light from only the position that you want to and avert your eyes from the realities from both sides. If you are asking me to believe that the RoC make all the decisions without their mother land then you really are asking too much. They have made a better job of hiding their unity with the motherland and we have not. That is the only difference. You could say that circumstances have not allowed us to do so but lets be over generous and say that we just did not do a good job of it.
When it comes to being afraid of the shadows...Do you not exhibit the same fear but for different reasons. I liken it to someone that is afraid of spiders trying to ridicule someone for being afraid of rats. You have chosen your phobia for the Turks and I have chosen the Greeks or rather the ones that want to do me harm whether it be physical or political. Are you also trying to tell me that the RoC or indeed Greece has no tanks or guns. I remember them getting in trouble a while back for spending a bit too much on just those items. I would not mind you calling where ever it is you think you are at Eden if you were actually standing in a field of flowers with peace written on every blade of grass but even Bannaniot cannot see the picture you paint and he is living in that very same field. It seems that the GCs that are telling us of this Promised Land have put an awful lot of manure down but forgot to plant the seeds needed. That my friend boils down to a field just full of shit. I know that Turkey has its problems and that relations with them has its problems too but the scenario you paint, that we will be second class citisens to them still sounds much much better than the very same status we will have in a Greek Cyprus. Second class Turks as opposed to second class non-entities. So the next time you make fun or even pity me for my very real and justified fears, first examine your own fears and make the comparison before you get on your high horse and tell me you alone have seen the light.

You are right,Zan...My biggest fear is that we will be assimilated into the Turkish society and disappear from the face of the earth.But unlike your fears,my fear is very real.It is happening as we speak. Your fears are based on events long past,they are false and pathological.You refuse to acknowledge that times have changed,and we have learned from history.Those terrible events which made you (and me!) scared shitless in the past cannot be repeated.You are also refusing to accept that we are closer to GCs in every aspect of our identity than our Turkish cousins.You are also refusing to see that if things continue the way they are you will be second class citizens in your new haven! Perhaps you really prefer that to living as equal citizens with our GC brothers in an independent and free Cyprus,as you say.That is your choice.Don't expect me to join you there.I will only return to Cypus if I can live as an equal citizen in a country respecting my right to be different,to be myself. It looks as if that will be the RoC.If my rights are trumpled upon in the RoC I can take my grivances to the EU human rights commission.Where will you take your grivances when you are treated as a servant/ nuisance in the TRNC???

ps.Lena will protect me anyway from those big bad wolves who will want to eat me alive,won't you Lena mou???

At least I have got some concession from you all be it a retraction followed shortly afterwards. I refuse, so far, to believe that you are as naive as you seem in the post above so with that I can only assume your agenda is dictating what you are writing. You fear assimilation by Turkey and fear assimilation by the RoC and therefore Greece but your fears are real and mine not. Don’t you find that a bit arrogant. I certainly do. My fears are not just based on the past but what is happening in the present also. If assimilation is not what the RoC is after why are they so vehemently refusing to share power. You may be willing to hand over all the power we have fought and died for, through no aggression on their part, but he rest of us Turkish Cypriots are not. If I had a penny for all the times in history people have said that we have learned from history and then have had to deal with the realities of war and mayhem I would have many many pennies. I have no problem with your statement about us being closer to our GC brothers than we are to our Turkish brothers but one has shown me no love whilst the other has protected me, for what ever reason or excuse you might find to throw at me, from the first. I am sorry but the only proof that you have as to why the RoC has not attacked and carried on the intended ethnic cleansing of my people is that there has been a large presence of my Turkish brothers there to prevent them. Whether they have intentions of a violent nature or one of political domination dose not matter one little bit because they are at a point where they can use the political one to great effect. This we are hoping will change with time and better-educated people fighting for our rights in the TRNC/KKTC. You try too hard to sell me a united Cyprus with all these faults and that can only make me suspicious about what you really are trying to achieve. I am not willing to give up my Turkish Cypriotness for fear of becoming assimilation when the other alternative takes away my Turkishness. My parents too speak very good Greek and my dad did not learn to speak Turkish properly until he met my mother. His mother died not speaking a word of Turkish but in our house, as I was growing up we only had two pieces of music that was Greek. We had Turkish music coming out of our ears. We had a picture Mustafa Kemal on the wall. We called helim, helim and olives zeytin. In short we had more in common with Turkish things and life just like all the other Turkish Cypriot friends and family we knew. When I went into my Greek Cypriot friend’s house things were alien and similar all in one but no more than walking into my Armenian friends home. Our whole culture is more in tune with the Turkish way of life than it is with the Greek way so I do not totally get where you get this thing about us being JUST Cypriots and that is the answer to everything. I realise you were taken in by a GC family and you personally have an affinity with that but you seem to ignore or have not thought much about the rest of us that have not, and that is the vast majority.

Your comment about us going to the EU if we are treated wrongly in our own country is laughable. Looking for our rights in retrospect to giving them up in the first place is just a line given out by the likes of Piratis and cannot really be taken seriously. The injustices of the EU let alone the world is something to be prepared against not reacted to. There is no equality in Cyprus for us TCs without extra legislation purely due to the nature of our history. We have a community with our rights fairly well taken care of, although here is a lot of work still to be done, and you ask for us to give that all up and have the added disadvantage of struggling for an identity as well. The RoC has done all it can to make their part of Cyprus Greek and it is not a place in which I feel comfortable. Stop trying to make out that it is a better place to be. Go visit the TRNC/KKTC and face your fears. Open the cupboard door and look within Bir to see that there are no monsters hiding there. The monsters are hiding in the government of the RoC and they seem to have you on a leash out in front of them.

[LENA]

You do not want to live in fear and intimidation...Unless it is from the Greek side. You see the light from only the position that you want to and avert your eyes from the realities from both sides. If you are asking me to believe that the RoC make all the decisions without their mother land then you really are asking too much. They have made a better job of hiding their unity with the motherland and we have not. That is the only difference. You could say that circumstances have not allowed us to do so but lets be over generous and say that we just did not do a good job of it.
When it comes to being afraid of the shadows...Do you not exhibit the same fear but for different reasons. I liken it to someone that is afraid of spiders trying to ridicule someone for being afraid of rats. You have chosen your phobia for the Turks and I have chosen the Greeks or rather the ones that want to do me harm whether it be physical or political. Are you also trying to tell me that the RoC or indeed Greece has no tanks or guns. I remember them getting in trouble a while back for spending a bit too much on just those items. I would not mind you calling where ever it is you think you are at Eden if you were actually standing in a field of flowers with peace written on every blade of grass but even Bannaniot cannot see the picture you paint and he is living in that very same field. It seems that the GCs that are telling us of this Promised Land have put an awful lot of manure down but forgot to plant the seeds needed. That my friend boils down to a field just full of shit. I know that Turkey has its problems and that relations with them has its problems too but the scenario you paint, that we will be second class citisens to them still sounds much much better than the very same status we will have in a Greek Cyprus. Second class Turks as opposed to second class non-entities. So the next time you make fun or even pity me for my very real and justified fears, first examine your own fears and make the comparison before you get on your high horse and tell me you alone have seen the light.

You are right,Zan...My biggest fear is that we will be assimilated into the Turkish society and disappear from the face of the earth.But unlike your fears,my fear is very real.It is happening as we speak. Your fears are based on events long past,they are false and pathological.You refuse to acknowledge that times have changed,and we have learned from history.Those terrible events which made you (and me!) scared shitless in the past cannot be repeated.You are also refusing to accept that we are closer to GCs in every aspect of our identity than our Turkish cousins.You are also refusing to see that if things continue the way they are you will be second class citizens in your new haven! Perhaps you really prefer that to living as equal citizens with our GC brothers in an independent and free Cyprus,as you say.That is your choice.Don't expect me to join you there.I will only return to Cypus if I can live as an equal citizen in a country respecting my right to be different,to be myself. It looks as if that will be the RoC.If my rights are trumpled upon in the RoC I can take my grivances to the EU human rights commission.Where will you take your grivances when you are treated as a servant/ nuisance in the TRNC???

ps.Lena will protect me anyway from those big bad wolves who will want to eat me alive,won't you Lena mou???

Of course I will birtanem ... hug you, kiss you, hold you you close to mt breast to protect you from the cold, the big bad wolves and the old nutty Zan...

In that case I will give you a clue.I come from Paphos and my grandparents spoke better Greek than Turkish.I was in Nicosia during the terrible 63-68 period and had my share of" fear and loathing" everything Greek,believe me...But I also had the good fortune of living as a tennant with a mainland Greek family when I first came to Australia.That family did not have a son,and treated me as one for the period I was there.I learned there that there are no Good or bad Greeks or Turks, only good people and bad people...

You 've been brought up from really nice people, learn the right things and learn that you shouldnt hate people but love them and respect them!

[mem101]

DT wrote:

"I take it differently. I think it is the "trnc" that chose politics over humanity. Had they wanted this to go ahead as normal they would have steered clear from any "official" symbols of the trnc and and claims of a trnc government. It is in fact the trnc that chose to use this as a means of further recognition and not partake in an exercise that could have gone ahead without provocation.

I'm sure Talat was just thinking of humanity like Shah and Zan who need to come off their high moral horse for a second and see who really is using this exercise for political gain."



The TRNC is struggling for political and economic recognition. There is no denying the humanitarian purpose of the meeting. You are asking them to accept that they are non-existant for the purpose of this meeting/organistaion. Would you? Would anyone? Who has the right to deny them from saying "We are the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, we exist! We have interests in humanitarian aid! We invite you to a conference to discuss such matters!"

[BirKibrisli]

@Birkibrisli:

I have come to the conclusion that we are much more like the GCs than our Turkish cousins.The Turks are our cousins perhaps,but the GCs are our brothers and sisters,our own flesh and blood,the people whose gene pool we share.

I totally disagree. I have GC friends that I socialize regularly since the doors opened in 2003 and I went to college in Turkey (which by the way was perhaps the most fun 4 years of my life) and have many friends in Turkey with whom I still interact. What you claim is a total distorsion of realities to convince people of your beliefs. With those "cousins", as you wish to label them, we speak the same language, we share the same religion, our marriages are simlar to their`s, we have intermarriage (as in your case), our folklore is similar to their`s, our food is similar to their`s, our jokes are similar to their`s, our conversations are similar to their`s, our traditions are similar to their`s and etc. I do not deny that we have many things in common with the GCs aswell. However, the comparative proportion of these similarities that you reflect in your comment (cousin vs. brother of flesh (!!!)) is ludicrous to say the least.

Secondly, when have you become the genetic scientist to derive at conclusions about our gene pool? Can you or anyone else with an inch of dignity deny that for the past 5 centuries during which TCs and GCs lived together in Cyprus, that intermarriage between the two communities have not prevailed? What gene pool are you talking about? Can you or anyone else with an inch of dignity deny that we have lived in separate villages based on communal backgrounds and even those living in same ones had neighborhoods forming based on communal backgrounds? We lived as good friends, we lived as good neighbors, we lived as good colleagues, but we never ever lived as one. And this is nothing to be ashamed of or to deny.

There is no Cypriot nation and there has never been one. Forcing us into this sythetic nationality is no different than trying to peel the skin off a living person and it is the most severe violation of our human rights that can not and will not accepted. We are Turkish Cypriots, that is two words, and neither of those words can be taken away from us to reach a political concensus.

You are offering a perspective for a solution with sincerity. I acknowledge and respect that. But you have to do it basing it on realities not "want to be"s.

Thank you for your measured and civilised response,Murataga.
I am so used to being abused by TCs that your response almost came as a shock.I will not argue with you regarding our similarities with the Turks or GCs.This I know is a very personal and emotional issue,and no amount of argument on my part will change your opinions.It is one mountain too high for most TCs to climb,I acknowledge it and respect it. But I am surprised that you have not heard of the scientific study,carried out by a TC in England I believe,which proved beyond any doubt that TCs and GCs share the same gene pool,which is different than those of mainland Turks and Greeks.A quick search of this site will bring up the appropriate thread for you to read. Not that I think it will make any difference,as most of the arguments there have shown.TCs keep blindly insisting that because they speak Turkish and believe in Islam they are just like the people of Turkey.
Try telling Americans they are British,or the Irish they are English and see what happens! Or the Argentinians that they are Spanish,or the Brazilians that they are Portuguese...

I have never advocated our shedding our Turkishness.That would be impossible because our Turkishness is etched in our hearts and our minds,for better or for worse. What I am advocating is to drop all the emotional and prejudicial and chauvinistic baggage we carry about our Turkishness. And embrace our Cypriotness with an open mind and all Cypriots with an open heart.And be true and faithful to our motherland,Cyprus...

[BirKibrisli]

You do not want to live in fear and intimidation...Unless it is from the Greek side. You see the light from only the position that you want to and avert your eyes from the realities from both sides. If you are asking me to believe that the RoC make all the decisions without their mother land then you really are asking too much. They have made a better job of hiding their unity with the motherland and we have not. That is the only difference. You could say that circumstances have not allowed us to do so but lets be over generous and say that we just did not do a good job of it.
When it comes to being afraid of the shadows...Do you not exhibit the same fear but for different reasons. I liken it to someone that is afraid of spiders trying to ridicule someone for being afraid of rats. You have chosen your phobia for the Turks and I have chosen the Greeks or rather the ones that want to do me harm whether it be physical or political. Are you also trying to tell me that the RoC or indeed Greece has no tanks or guns. I remember them getting in trouble a while back for spending a bit too much on just those items. I would not mind you calling where ever it is you think you are at Eden if you were actually standing in a field of flowers with peace written on every blade of grass but even Bannaniot cannot see the picture you paint and he is living in that very same field. It seems that the GCs that are telling us of this Promised Land have put an awful lot of manure down but forgot to plant the seeds needed. That my friend boils down to a field just full of shit. I know that Turkey has its problems and that relations with them has its problems too but the scenario you paint, that we will be second class citisens to them still sounds much much better than the very same status we will have in a Greek Cyprus. Second class Turks as opposed to second class non-entities. So the next time you make fun or even pity me for my very real and justified fears, first examine your own fears and make the comparison before you get on your high horse and tell me you alone have seen the light.

You are right,Zan...My biggest fear is that we will be assimilated into the Turkish society and disappear from the face of the earth.But unlike your fears,my fear is very real.It is happening as we speak. Your fears are based on events long past,they are false and pathological.You refuse to acknowledge that times have changed,and we have learned from history.Those terrible events which made you (and me!) scared shitless in the past cannot be repeated.You are also refusing to accept that we are closer to GCs in every aspect of our identity than our Turkish cousins.You are also refusing to see that if things continue the way they are you will be second class citizens in your new haven! Perhaps you really prefer that to living as equal citizens with our GC brothers in an independent and free Cyprus,as you say.That is your choice.Don't expect me to join you there.I will only return to Cypus if I can live as an equal citizen in a country respecting my right to be different,to be myself. It looks as if that will be the RoC.If my rights are trumpled upon in the RoC I can take my grivances to the EU human rights commission.Where will you take your grivances when you are treated as a servant/ nuisance in the TRNC???

ps.Lena will protect me anyway from those big bad wolves who will want to eat me alive,won't you Lena mou???

At least I have got some concession from you all be it a retraction followed shortly afterwards. I refuse, so far, to believe that you are as naive as you seem in the post above so with that I can only assume your agenda is dictating what you are writing. You fear assimilation by Turkey and fear assimilation by the RoC and therefore Greece but your fears are real and mine not. Don’t you find that a bit arrogant. I certainly do. My fears are not just based on the past but what is happening in the present also. If assimilation is not what the RoC is after why are they so vehemently refusing to share power. You may be willing to hand over all the power we have fought and died for, through no aggression on their part, but he rest of us Turkish Cypriots are not. If I had a penny for all the times in history people have said that we have learned from history and then have had to deal with the realities of war and mayhem I would have many many pennies. I have no problem with your statement about us being closer to our GC brothers than we are to our Turkish brothers but one has shown me no love whilst the other has protected me, for what ever reason or excuse you might find to throw at me, from the first. I am sorry but the only proof that you have as to why the RoC has not attacked and carried on the intended ethnic cleansing of my people is that there has been a large presence of my Turkish brothers there to prevent them. Whether they have intentions of a violent nature or one of political domination dose not matter one little bit because they are at a point where they can use the political one to great effect. This we are hoping will change with time and better-educated people fighting for our rights in the TRNC/KKTC. You try too hard to sell me a united Cyprus with all these faults and that can only make me suspicious about what you really are trying to achieve. I am not willing to give up my Turkish Cypriotness for fear of becoming assimilation when the other alternative takes away my Turkishness. My parents too speak very good Greek and my dad did not learn to speak Turkish properly until he met my mother. His mother died not speaking a word of Turkish but in our house, as I was growing up we only had two pieces of music that was Greek. We had Turkish music coming out of our ears. We had a picture Mustafa Kemal on the wall. We called helim, helim and olives zeytin. In short we had more in common with Turkish things and life just like all the other Turkish Cypriot friends and family we knew. When I went into my Greek Cypriot friend’s house things were alien and similar all in one but no more than walking into my Armenian friends home. Our whole culture is more in tune with the Turkish way of life than it is with the Greek way so I do not totally get where you get this thing about us being JUST Cypriots and that is the answer to everything. I realise you were taken in by a GC family and you personally have an affinity with that but you seem to ignore or have not thought much about the rest of us that have not, and that is the vast majority.

Your comment about us going to the EU if we are treated wrongly in our own country is laughable. Looking for our rights in retrospect to giving them up in the first place is just a line given out by the likes of Piratis and cannot really be taken seriously. The injustices of the EU let alone the world is something to be prepared against not reacted to. There is no equality in Cyprus for us TCs without extra legislation purely due to the nature of our history. We have a community with our rights fairly well taken care of, although here is a lot of work still to be done, and you ask for us to give that all up and have the added disadvantage of struggling for an identity as well. The RoC has done all it can to make their part of Cyprus Greek and it is not a place in which I feel comfortable. Stop trying to make out that it is a better place to be. Go visit the TRNC/KKTC and face your fears. Open the cupboard door and look within Bir to see that there are no monsters hiding there. The monsters are hiding in the government of the RoC and they seem to have you on a leash out in front of them.

I could take most of your sentences one by one and argue with them individually,Zan,but I know it would be a waste of time. You choose to believe that I have some sort of agenda I keep pushing.Nothing I say,short of "you are right,Zan,in everything you say" will change that.

I have been saying this over and over: We keep going the way we are and the result is certain assimilation into the Turkish world and loss of our unique identity as TCs...Or we can be true to ourselves and our motherland,and join the rest of our compatriots on mutually agreeable terms,and preserve our identity and dignity as TCs for eternity...You have declared yourself for certain assimilation,and you don't need me to achieve that end...I have declared myself for preserving my dignity and integrity as TCs,and I need you and as many of us as possible to achieve that end...That is my tragedy...You have won...Your will will prevail...I will have to be satisfied with being a very small minority,not exactly welcome but tolerated by the majority of GCs, in my own country...I will blame you and the rest of those gutless wonders parading as TCs in the pariah state of TRNC...In time I might forgive you for your role in our community's cultural genocide,but I will never forget it...

[BirKibrisli]

Of course I will birtanem ... hug you, kiss you, hold you you close to mt breast to protect you from the cold, the big bad wolves and the old nutty Zan...

If you do all that Lena mou,I am likely to suffer a heart attack,and go meet my maker before my time...

But thank you, I appreciate the thought...I can hear your heartbeats already ...

[LENA]

Of course I will birtanem ... hug you, kiss you, hold you you close to mt breast to protect you from the cold, the big bad wolves and the old nutty Zan...

If you do all that Lena mou,I am likely to suffer a heart attack,and go meet my maker before my time...

But thank you, I appreciate the thought...I can hear your heartbeats already ...

Ohhh...



well I just wanted to hug you...nothing more...to make you feel safe ... I dont want to harm you....

[BirKibrisli]

Of course I will birtanem ... hug you, kiss you, hold you you close to mt breast to protect you from the cold, the big bad wolves and the old nutty Zan...

If you do all that Lena mou,I am likely to suffer a heart attack,and go meet my maker before my time...

But thank you, I appreciate the thought...I can hear your heartbeats already ...

Ohhh...



well I just wanted to hug you...nothing more...to make you feel safe ... I dont want to harm you....

Kali nihta,Lena mou...I am going to bed now with a heart warmed by your hugs...

[LENA]

Kali nihta,Lena mou...I am going to bed now with a heart warmed by your hugs...

Kalinuxta kardoula mou!
Iyi geceler birtanem!
Tatli ruyalar!
xxxx