So the British did nothing, then the bullet hole that a friend of mine got was just a dream was it. Also there were many a confrontation with British forces with both Cypriots and Turks. I would say again if the SBA (eastern) would not have been there, then that side of the Island would have been lost.
Bear
Republic of Cyprus passes resolution against British govt...
by dancingbear » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:26 am
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by sweetie pie » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:36 am
shahmaran wrote:villawagen wrote:think British imperialist goals are now a thing of the past, the empire days are over and they certainly do not want to build it back up
Oh yeah, that's exactly why they are in Iraq along with their bestest mate; the other ever so "nonimperialist" country, the US!
....and its all because they are such amazing people and love to help others ...
They will leave Iraq when the time is right. The Brits have already handed back into Iraqi control almost all the areas they were overseeing. There is just one area left and it is thought this will be handed back later this year! But hey! dont let the truth get into the way of some more Brit bashing!
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by Niki » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:42 am
It depends what you read and the information source. The UK does pay far more into the EU than it gets out. I agree that the rebate is no longer viable now the UK's economy is as strong as it is.
Cyprus for the size of the country and the historical and geographic problems seems to be economically efficient. Whatvever you think of the government it has made some sound financial decisions.
The question is would the ecomomy suffer or grow if the bases pulled out? I don't think anyone can predict the outcome. The reasoning against the bases tends to be emotional rather than economical.
Also could Cyprus defend itself without the military support of the bases. I don't know enough about this to comment so please educate me.
This link is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... pean_Union
Cyprus for the size of the country and the historical and geographic problems seems to be economically efficient. Whatvever you think of the government it has made some sound financial decisions.
The question is would the ecomomy suffer or grow if the bases pulled out? I don't think anyone can predict the outcome. The reasoning against the bases tends to be emotional rather than economical.
Also could Cyprus defend itself without the military support of the bases. I don't know enough about this to comment so please educate me.
This link is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... pean_Union
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by sweetie pie » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:50 am
Niki2410 wrote:It depends what you read and the information source. The UK does pay far more into the EU than it gets out. I agree that the rebate is no longer viable now the UK's economy is as strong as it is.
Cyprus for the size of the country and the historical and geographic problems seems to be economically efficient. Whatvever you think of the government it has made some sound financial decisions.
The question is would the ecomomy suffer or grow if the bases pulled out? I don't think anyone can predict the outcome. The reasoning against the bases tends to be emotional rather than economical.
Also could Cyprus defend itself without the military support of the bases. I don't know enough about this to comment so please educate me.
This link is interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of ... pean_Union
Forgive me if I didn't make that clear Niki. I just wanted to make the point that it does get millions from the EU to regenerate run down and economically poor areas. But like you said it pays in far in excess of what it gets out.
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by kalahari » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:29 am
Wading in here.
Let's keep things simple. The British occupied territory is leased to the British government by the RoC for a rent – a rent which has never been paid, as far as I am aware. This rent is therefore due, or the British government is effectively squatting.
So let's assume they are squatters. What benefits have they brought to the community? Go through a "what have the British ever done for US?" exercise in your head. Let's not forget their most significant contibution, which I would suggest has been getting Ankara to think twice about advancing any further just by being there. Ankara aren't frightened of the British? Yeah, right.
So they're benevolent squatters then. But, nevertheless, still squatters. If this was a residential property, what would your attitude be then? You have squatters, but they're useful to have around. Do you evict? No. Do you demand payment of rent? Can they afford to pay the rent? Well, in this case, yes – they certainly can. So, the British should pay the rent. End of story.
What if they refuse? Ah, well there's the rub.
I do get rather weary of Cypriots criticising the "dumbarse Brits" for not doing anything during the invasion of 1974. The events that led up to the invasion of 1974 came about as a result of the actions, vanities and ideologies of one man who is still venerated in the RoC, much to my disgust, vis: Makarios.
If he had not been such a poor politician then the whole stinking mess would never have happened. You don't piss off Henry Kissinger and expect to get away with it. The British knew this, and that's why they did nothing to stop the Turkish invasion. And before you criticise the morality of this inaction, ask yourself if Makarios was making the Brits feel welcome in Cyprus at the time either.
Makarios was an amateur with an over-blown sense of self-importance. Today he is held up as the father of the independent Cypriot nation. He wanted to sell Cyprus out to the Greeks, and ended up engineering a coup that went disasterously wrong. Let's not forget that Sampson was on the payroll of Makarios. Oh yes, he was. I have spoken at length to a personal friend of Nico Sampson on just this subject. If you'd like to know more, just let me know.
So, in conclusion:
The Brits should be treated with the respect they deserve for the many benefits they bring to the island, but should also pay their rent. (They won't – the British government are bastards.)
The Turks should get out of Cyprus and take their tacky flashing flags off the mountains before they go.
Europe should make the Turks go; and make the Brits pay their rent. (They won't – the EC government is a toothless tiger.)
Makarios should be recognised for the self-interested no hoper he actually was, and his name removed from all the schools, avenues etc; which might stop irritating the Turks by reminding them about Enosis and the shambolic coup.
Cyprus should try putting the past behind it and realise that, of all the European nations, it has the best chance of becoming a European centre for banking, trade, diplomacy – all thanks to their incredibly fortuitous geographic positioning.
Oh, and just in case anybody has any doubts about my alleigiances, I and my family are intending to become Cypriot nationals as soon as the law allows us to.
Well, that lot should have put the cat amongst the pigeons! (Stands well back and waits for the flak.)
Let's keep things simple. The British occupied territory is leased to the British government by the RoC for a rent – a rent which has never been paid, as far as I am aware. This rent is therefore due, or the British government is effectively squatting.
So let's assume they are squatters. What benefits have they brought to the community? Go through a "what have the British ever done for US?" exercise in your head. Let's not forget their most significant contibution, which I would suggest has been getting Ankara to think twice about advancing any further just by being there. Ankara aren't frightened of the British? Yeah, right.
So they're benevolent squatters then. But, nevertheless, still squatters. If this was a residential property, what would your attitude be then? You have squatters, but they're useful to have around. Do you evict? No. Do you demand payment of rent? Can they afford to pay the rent? Well, in this case, yes – they certainly can. So, the British should pay the rent. End of story.
What if they refuse? Ah, well there's the rub.
I do get rather weary of Cypriots criticising the "dumbarse Brits" for not doing anything during the invasion of 1974. The events that led up to the invasion of 1974 came about as a result of the actions, vanities and ideologies of one man who is still venerated in the RoC, much to my disgust, vis: Makarios.
If he had not been such a poor politician then the whole stinking mess would never have happened. You don't piss off Henry Kissinger and expect to get away with it. The British knew this, and that's why they did nothing to stop the Turkish invasion. And before you criticise the morality of this inaction, ask yourself if Makarios was making the Brits feel welcome in Cyprus at the time either.
Makarios was an amateur with an over-blown sense of self-importance. Today he is held up as the father of the independent Cypriot nation. He wanted to sell Cyprus out to the Greeks, and ended up engineering a coup that went disasterously wrong. Let's not forget that Sampson was on the payroll of Makarios. Oh yes, he was. I have spoken at length to a personal friend of Nico Sampson on just this subject. If you'd like to know more, just let me know.
So, in conclusion:
The Brits should be treated with the respect they deserve for the many benefits they bring to the island, but should also pay their rent. (They won't – the British government are bastards.)
The Turks should get out of Cyprus and take their tacky flashing flags off the mountains before they go.
Europe should make the Turks go; and make the Brits pay their rent. (They won't – the EC government is a toothless tiger.)
Makarios should be recognised for the self-interested no hoper he actually was, and his name removed from all the schools, avenues etc; which might stop irritating the Turks by reminding them about Enosis and the shambolic coup.
Cyprus should try putting the past behind it and realise that, of all the European nations, it has the best chance of becoming a European centre for banking, trade, diplomacy – all thanks to their incredibly fortuitous geographic positioning.
Oh, and just in case anybody has any doubts about my alleigiances, I and my family are intending to become Cypriot nationals as soon as the law allows us to.
Well, that lot should have put the cat amongst the pigeons! (Stands well back and waits for the flak.)
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by dancingbear » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:50 am
kalahari,
Lots of good points in there. Cyprus wants rent, the British says its a fully paid up Tennant. Get these two countries to publicise the documents and lets all have a look.Then make our own minds up.
Bear
Lots of good points in there. Cyprus wants rent, the British says its a fully paid up Tennant. Get these two countries to publicise the documents and lets all have a look.Then make our own minds up.
Bear
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by Biker » Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:57 am
kalahari wrote:Wading in here.
Let's keep things simple. The British occupied territory is leased to the British government by the RoC for a rent – a rent which has never been paid, as far as I am aware.
Putting a toe in the water here.
What exactly is/was the rent agreed and where is it written into any agreement?
As far as I know they are SOVEREIGN bases and if you own something you don't pay rent for it.
Again as far as I know the money paid to the ROC between 1960-65 was not rent but aid.
sovereign
sovereign [ sóvvrin ]
with complete power: having supreme authority or power
The king is the sovereign ruler of the land.
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by kalahari » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:52 pm
Hi biker, and everybody else engaged in this stimulating debate.
Here are a few hard cold facts, lifted from the UKFO site and Wikipedia.
"The Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) are sovereign British territory and cover 98 square miles of the island of Cyprus. The SBAs are purely military in nature. They are run by the SBA Administration and have their own legislation, police force and courts. They are very closely linked with the Republic of Cyprus with whom they are in a customs and currency union.
"The SBAs are retained as military bases – not colonial territories. This is the basic philosophy of their administration as stated by HMG in 1960 in the policy declaration usually known as 'Appendix O' . This stated that the policy objectives for the administration of the areas were to be:
• Not to develop the Sovereign Base Areas for other than military purposes.
• Not to set up and administer "colonies".
• Not to create customs posts or other frontier barriers between the Sovereign Base Areas and the Republic.
• Not to set up or permit the establishment of civilian commercial or industrial enterprises except in so far as these are connected with military requirements, and not otherwise to impair the economic commercial or industrial unity and life of the Island.
• Not to establish commercial or civilian seaports or airports.
• Not to allow new settlement of people in the Sovereign Base Areas other than for temporary purposes.
• Not to expropriate private property within the Sovereign Base Areas except for military purposes on payment of fair compensation.
"Because the SBAs are primarily required as military bases and not ordinary dependent territories, the Administration reports to the Ministry of Defence in London. It has no formal connection with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office or the British High Commission in Nicosia, although there are close informal links with both offices on policy matter"
"Cyprus has occasionally demanded the return of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, citing that the bases take up a large amount of territory that could be used for civilian development."
For four years after Cypriot independence in 1960, the British government paid the Republic of Cyprus rent for the bases. (Can anybody discover the basis of this agreement?) After the intercommunal conflict of 1963-64 they stopped, claiming there was no guarantee that both communities would benefit equally from that money. (Hah! Since when was rent supposed to benefit the tenant?)
The Cypriot government is still claiming money for the years from 1964 to now. Estimates for the debt range from several hundred thousand to over one billion Euros.
And here are a few "what have the Brits ever done for us" facts:
"Traditionally the UK has been the single most significant trading partner for Cyprus. In 2003 Cyprus was ranked in the top 51 British worldwide exports league table for exports from the UK. The value of UK exports to Cyprus in 2004 were GB£ 302 million. At the same time Cyprus exports to UK in 2004 reached GB£186 million."
27 February 2006 – EU Foreign Ministers agree 139 million euro of financial aid for northern Cyprus.
Just for the record, the 2004 value of export goods to the UK, GB£ 186 million = 274 million euro or, roughly, TWICE the total aid package to the north.
Interesting, huh?
Here are a few hard cold facts, lifted from the UKFO site and Wikipedia.
"The Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) are sovereign British territory and cover 98 square miles of the island of Cyprus. The SBAs are purely military in nature. They are run by the SBA Administration and have their own legislation, police force and courts. They are very closely linked with the Republic of Cyprus with whom they are in a customs and currency union.
"The SBAs are retained as military bases – not colonial territories. This is the basic philosophy of their administration as stated by HMG in 1960 in the policy declaration usually known as 'Appendix O' . This stated that the policy objectives for the administration of the areas were to be:
• Not to develop the Sovereign Base Areas for other than military purposes.
• Not to set up and administer "colonies".
• Not to create customs posts or other frontier barriers between the Sovereign Base Areas and the Republic.
• Not to set up or permit the establishment of civilian commercial or industrial enterprises except in so far as these are connected with military requirements, and not otherwise to impair the economic commercial or industrial unity and life of the Island.
• Not to establish commercial or civilian seaports or airports.
• Not to allow new settlement of people in the Sovereign Base Areas other than for temporary purposes.
• Not to expropriate private property within the Sovereign Base Areas except for military purposes on payment of fair compensation.
"Because the SBAs are primarily required as military bases and not ordinary dependent territories, the Administration reports to the Ministry of Defence in London. It has no formal connection with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office or the British High Commission in Nicosia, although there are close informal links with both offices on policy matter"
"Cyprus has occasionally demanded the return of Akrotiri and Dhekelia, citing that the bases take up a large amount of territory that could be used for civilian development."
For four years after Cypriot independence in 1960, the British government paid the Republic of Cyprus rent for the bases. (Can anybody discover the basis of this agreement?) After the intercommunal conflict of 1963-64 they stopped, claiming there was no guarantee that both communities would benefit equally from that money. (Hah! Since when was rent supposed to benefit the tenant?)
The Cypriot government is still claiming money for the years from 1964 to now. Estimates for the debt range from several hundred thousand to over one billion Euros.
And here are a few "what have the Brits ever done for us" facts:
"Traditionally the UK has been the single most significant trading partner for Cyprus. In 2003 Cyprus was ranked in the top 51 British worldwide exports league table for exports from the UK. The value of UK exports to Cyprus in 2004 were GB£ 302 million. At the same time Cyprus exports to UK in 2004 reached GB£186 million."
27 February 2006 – EU Foreign Ministers agree 139 million euro of financial aid for northern Cyprus.
Just for the record, the 2004 value of export goods to the UK, GB£ 186 million = 274 million euro or, roughly, TWICE the total aid package to the north.
Interesting, huh?
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by dancingbear » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:29 pm
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by dancingbear » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:03 pm
Have a read of full document in this link , http://www.sba.mod.uk/web_pages/legal_keydocuments.htm
Under:
Definitions sections of Annexes B and C to the Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus, which are often used as definitions in SBA legislation (or see the Word document file of the whole Treaty on the official site of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus)
The word document.
EXCHANGE OF NOTES BETWEEN THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND CYPRUS CONCERNING THE FUTURE OF THE SOVEREIGN BASE AREAS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 1 OF THE TREATY OF 16 AUGUST 1960 CONCERNING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS. NICOSIA, 16 AUGUST 1960
I
Nicosia, August 16, 1960
Your Excellencies,
I have the honour to refer to the Sovereign Base Areas mentioned in Article I of the Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and in this connection to state that the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland do not intend to relinquish their sovereignty or effective control over the Sovereign Base Areas and that therefore the question of their cession does not arise.
I have the honour to be,
Your Excellencies' most obedient, humble Servant,
Hugh Foot
Archbishop Makarios
President of the Republic of Cyprus
Dr Fazil Kutchuk
Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus
II
Nicosia, August 16, 1960
Your Excellency,
We have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your Note of today's date, which reads as follows:-
[See note I]
2. We wish, on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus, to assure you that the Republic of Cyprus will not demand that the United Kingdom should relinquish their sovereignty or effective control over the Sovereign Base Areas. In the event, however, that the Government of the United Kingdom, in view of changes in their military requirements, should at any time decide to divest themselves of the aforesaid sovereignty or effective control over the Sovereign Base Areas, or any part thereof, it is understood that such sovereignty or control shall be transferred to the Republic of Cyprus.
We have the honour to present our best respects,
Ο ΚΥΠΡΟΥ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ F. KŰCŰK
Sir Hugh Foot, G.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., O.B.E.
III
Nicosia, August 16, 1960
Your Excellencies,
I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your Note of to-day's date which reads as follows:-
[See note II]
2. I have the honour further to state that the Government of the United Kingdom are in full agreement with the views contained in that Note.
I have the honour to be,
Your Excellencies' most obedient, humble Servant,
Hugh Foot
Archbishop Makarios
President of the Republic of Cyprus
Dr Fazil Kutchuk
Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus
Cannot see anything on there about payments, Just Loans from the UK to Republic of Cyprus.
Bear
Under:
Definitions sections of Annexes B and C to the Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus, which are often used as definitions in SBA legislation (or see the Word document file of the whole Treaty on the official site of Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cyprus)
The word document.
EXCHANGE OF NOTES BETWEEN THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND CYPRUS CONCERNING THE FUTURE OF THE SOVEREIGN BASE AREAS REFERRED TO IN ARTICLE 1 OF THE TREATY OF 16 AUGUST 1960 CONCERNING THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF CYPRUS. NICOSIA, 16 AUGUST 1960
I
Nicosia, August 16, 1960
Your Excellencies,
I have the honour to refer to the Sovereign Base Areas mentioned in Article I of the Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and in this connection to state that the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland do not intend to relinquish their sovereignty or effective control over the Sovereign Base Areas and that therefore the question of their cession does not arise.
I have the honour to be,
Your Excellencies' most obedient, humble Servant,
Hugh Foot
Archbishop Makarios
President of the Republic of Cyprus
Dr Fazil Kutchuk
Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus
II
Nicosia, August 16, 1960
Your Excellency,
We have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your Note of today's date, which reads as follows:-
[See note I]
2. We wish, on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus, to assure you that the Republic of Cyprus will not demand that the United Kingdom should relinquish their sovereignty or effective control over the Sovereign Base Areas. In the event, however, that the Government of the United Kingdom, in view of changes in their military requirements, should at any time decide to divest themselves of the aforesaid sovereignty or effective control over the Sovereign Base Areas, or any part thereof, it is understood that such sovereignty or control shall be transferred to the Republic of Cyprus.
We have the honour to present our best respects,
Ο ΚΥΠΡΟΥ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΟΣ F. KŰCŰK
Sir Hugh Foot, G.C.M.G., K.C.V.O., O.B.E.
III
Nicosia, August 16, 1960
Your Excellencies,
I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your Note of to-day's date which reads as follows:-
[See note II]
2. I have the honour further to state that the Government of the United Kingdom are in full agreement with the views contained in that Note.
I have the honour to be,
Your Excellencies' most obedient, humble Servant,
Hugh Foot
Archbishop Makarios
President of the Republic of Cyprus
Dr Fazil Kutchuk
Vice-President of the Republic of Cyprus
Cannot see anything on there about payments, Just Loans from the UK to Republic of Cyprus.
Bear
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