Cyprus-Forum.com

[lupusdiavoli]

By all means, Macedonian

I will hold my lines and come up after you complete your arguments. Please note howeve that it seems to me that the present turns to be a contest between Turkey and Greece.

Not surprising and I can find some "blame" to myself since I entered in sensitive for the Greeks areas. Obviously I don' t like carpets. Do not judge the catholic by a minor incident. It was as if because you know Nicator every Greek knows him. Ah, I perceive I am correct if I spell it Nicator-a -just to give u food for thought- speaking of who is aware of Greek reality. I very much doubt how many Greeks are really able to say this light shade to the name...

Put otherwise, learn your enemy to ...

Time out for the moment

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,

I made reference to several issues. You give emphasis to the issue of human rights. This is your perception for obvious reasons. We can extensively discuss the issue. What u don’ t take into account is that “human rights” solely cannot offer too much. They are an instrument when u r able to enforce them. Otherwise they are simply a resort of the weak side.

No lupusdiavoli, massive and continuing violation of human rights by Turkey in Cyprus is neither my mere perception –it is a proved and undisputed fact; not it is the only factor on which I give emphasis on. Besides the verified and undisputed massive violation of Greek Cypriot’s human right, there is an issue of blatant violation of international law by Turkey due to its illegal invasion and illegal occupation of 1/3 of a sovereign UN member country. Whether human rights is a resort of the weak or not, it is irrelevant, and I do not understand what your argument is all about!

I perceive Cyprus issue to be a politic one.

You perceive Cyprus issue to be a political one? Really??

Perceive it as much as you wish! The truth of the matter is that the Cyprus issue, in its current form and shape, and since 1974, is not primarily a political but a legal one! It is one of massive violation of human rights (a fact –theft and massive usurpation of homes, properties, historical, religious and cultural sites, and ethnic cleansing of almost the entire indigenous population of occupied north Cyprus,) and a violation of the UN Charter and international law (again a fact –illegal invasion and occupation of a sovereign UN member nation-state!) It is a political one to the extent that there is a need for an agreement between the GC and TC communities for a internal constitutional revision or re-drafting to regulate, control and govern the internal political life of the country, but this is just about it! Turkey has absolutely no business and no right in occupying 1/3 of Cyprus and keeping the properties and part of the country of the GCs a hostage and under occupation! That where the Cyprus problem becomes primarily a legal issue! I suggest you learn your facts better, although being a Turkish sympathiser I suspect you will come back with the usual ridiculous and largely fictional, nevertheless irrelevant, arguments and claims regarding the 1963-1974 period, and how the GCs where “chasing, vandalising, torturing, raping, massacring and annihilating” the TCs!

Political problems of this sort are not to be solved on the basis of human rights and the relevant literature.

Really?
And what sort of political problem is the Cyprus one that cannot (also) be solved on the basis of human rights and international legality? And if so, why don’t all the UN resolutions so far take your theories (read sophistries) and your approach into consideration, not to take into account human rights and international law?

As an element, by this I am answering your second query, they do consist source of some pressure but not decisive one for Turkey.

And your point is? Just because Turkey has absolutely no regard for international legality and human rights, including those of her own people; and just because for the west and the Anglo-Americans Turkey is still (I hope not for too long) a valuable “ally,” and because we as a small country do not have the option to declare a war on her and evict her from Cyprus in the same way that she illegally came and stationed herslef here; it means that we should give up, surrender our cause and capitulate? Is this what you are trying so reluctantly to tell us all this time? To please whom? The Anglo-Americans and their interests that dictate that the Cyprus issue should be wrapt up and closed, so that it gets out of Turkey’s EU pathway? Or to vindicate Turkey’s act of aggression, theft and ethnic cleansing against a small country? Do not worry! I am not going to question your morals, as I am sure such a word doesn’t to exist in your dictionary!

It could be a decisive weapon if for example France or Germany like to stop once and for all Turkey to enter EU. But this would be the make-up of their political decision based on other considerations and not their agony for human rights. Europeans have the tendency to remember human rights when it suits their interests.

What will you gain? Well, the decision making process has to take into account the surrounding elements such as time, geopolitical position, balance of power, the defeat of 1974 and reach a conclusion whether being the weak side it is of his interest to make compromises. The benefit will be some sort of a “solution” while there is still time. The opposite proposal would be to wait for the never to come day when human rights will be enforced automatically.

Lupusdiavoli, there was no defeat in 1974! In 1974 there was only an illegal invasion by a country with a population 100 times large than ours, on the basis of some self-made loose excuses and pre-texts, and an ethnic cleansing, theft and a looting, and since then an illegal occupation. We did not declare a war against anyone to have to had lost one, set aside one against Turkey! If there is one to have lost a war in 1974, this is no one else other than Turkey, for its objective to legitimise and legalise its aggression and theft through our capitulation and signature, did not materialise! We did not capitulate right after 1974, and did not sign off the north to Turkey via the TC puppet leadership, when all of us were just made refugees and used to live in tents or under trees, and we do not plan to capitulate now that we have become an EU member state with a veto right, while Turkey is still struggling to legalise its attempted theft and Turkification of 1/3 of our country and also struggling herself to become an EU member. The loser is Turkey, and not us! We can wait as long as it takes, like our ancestors waited and endured the Turkish yolk for 300 years, during the Ottomans.

We are prepared to make an alliance with the devil itself, if this is what it takes, but we will not make such a favour to Turkey to accept our ethnic cleansing from 1/3 of our historical homeland as a fait accompli of her megalomaniac illusions of grandeur, via Annan plan solution types.

[lupusdiavoli]

I am puzzled Kifeas...

Not really. But you dedicated enough time and thought to support your position. I can understand this due to the fact that for those who care -this is your case- such expression is much expected. I cannot share your "enthousiasm". I am ditached for the issue and you are not. You are sort of angry. Anyway.

It was a fine essay though on the human rights issue. So you expect from me to come up "with the usual ridiculous and largely fictional, nevertheless irrelevant, arguments and claims regarding the 1963-1974 period".

I will dissapoint you once again. I would have to adapt the human rights theory to point out such an argument. As I said I don' t believe in them.

On the contrary my answer to that fine essay of yours regarding human rights and legality etc. is that you are absolutely correct! I can find nothing to dissagree.

I could also note that since the Cyprus issue seems to be primarily of legal nature you should take it to a Court of some sort. I can help you draft your pleadings and prepare your case.

Now, can u explain me why there is no such Court to give judgment in your favour? You are thinking of the several international courts and tribunals...

Either we can agree on the nature of the problem and define it in political terms or we can -mostly you- keep adding legal allegations and the same. Yes llet us say that legally Turkey has no business -not totally valid- in Cyprus. Politically has though and this is the element that prevails. Otherwise you could take your legal and human rights concrete grounds and find a solution in no time. For some reason -find it- this is not the case. Look the reality.

Speaking of which 1974 was no defeat! You are "right" again. You have to give the fight to claim a right even over being defeated! So, the equations goes like this; you are being invaded and because this is illegal it doesn' t count as defeat. Ah, great help for moral. We did not lose it was illegal! Great thinking.

OK. I am playing. As you said I should read sophists. Which one of them, Protagoras, Callicles, Nikias, Gorgias? Shall I continue? I could recomend you to read them. It might help you realise reality. But since it is a matter of taste you may prefer their opponents. Socrates and Plato. Utopia may be sounds good to your ears because the modern version of platonic ideas it is you know the human rights.

You are right I am not losing time to think on morals or ethics as you call it. Call me amoralist.

I like your last sentence; "We are prepared to make an alliance with the devil itself, if this is what it takes, but we will not make such a favour to Turkey to accept our ethnic cleansing from 1/3 of our historical homeland as a fait accompli of her megalomaniac illusions of grandeur, via Annan plan solution types."

Once again it sounds most heroic. I totally respect that. It shows character. So now what Greek? Where are we stand?

A cynic amoralist like me and a true believer of ideas and ethics? Who do you think can claim the field? I like this old-new-everlasting battle of Good and Evil. For some strange reason again and again the kingdom of Good seems to be postponed for the future!

Anyway. You are not obliged to agree with me. But the hard reality speaks through your words "we as a small country do not have the option to declare a war on her and evict her from Cyprus" ... So u see the enforcement of human rights ends to be an issue of power.

Among these two it is obviously whta do I find of my taste.

Have a nice day. At least I am polite. Ah, speaking of devil would u like to make some sort of alliance?

[Kifeas]

Lupusdiavoli, I do not know your background, where you live and where you come from. I do not share any of your views and ideas, neither does the vast majority of the GC society does! There are a few exceptions like Bananiot, but that is all about it. Thanks god, maybe only 1-2% of GCs. I do not really have to add much more on what I have already said so far, but only to make a wish to see the place you live on now to be invaded, excuses for this can always easily be found (you know, “political” reasons,) and you and your family to be subsequently kicked out of your home and property like dogs and have them all usurped and traded for peanuts to some poachers, always for political reasons since human rights do not exist. I wish this happens to you one day!

[free_cyprus]

the only way turkish and greek speaking cypriots will ever unite and be in harmony is the day when they abandon motherland myths................ as long as that myth stands and they are manupilated from greece and turkey then cypriots have no chance at all to be cypriots........................

[free_cyprus]

cyprus is invaded from all sides and people of cyprus are to stupid to realise it ............................... if we are shouting to be cypriots then fine but they are shouting to be greeks and turks and and they talk a lot of shit like their ansestors come from turkey and greece.......................... and cyprus was colonised by greece and ruled by turkey for over many centuries i dont care about greece or tueky they have their own country i want my island back and i dont want to see a sinlge turkish or greek flag in cyprus better still no turkish or greek history booke either

[lupusdiavoli]

Kifeas,

You never know. But let me say that your wish sounds like wishing payback of some sort (?)... Strange it is that a believer of such ideas wishes, of human rights particularly, wishes to a fellow human to have such misfortune. It is contradictory and I can only understand it in the sense that you believe that if I have the like experience then I will join you in your ideas.

My background? It doesn' t matter to you. That I have different beliefs is enough for you to wish me "all the best" in a way that simply verifies my words, ie. human rights and the same is a matter of power. Having no power you employ humanistic poems. If u were in the powerful position you would be able to make your wish to come true.

However our difference I was calm and gentle with you practising dialectic ways. Argument against argument and in several cases I did not hesitate to agree with you.

Once again I will say that you may believe whatever. I am not the one you have to blame for reality. Neither I am responsible to make you understand simple differences in terms like legality, human rights theory, idealistic values and the same. It takes time and the way someone interpretates them differs.

But since ever those who are weak suffer and those who possess power make other to suffer. This is human nature and human reality. Certainly those who want to change it -in the favour by the way- exist too.

In silent words they say... wait and the balance will shift and then we will show them. At the least I will not expect help from outsiders, nor I will try to find excuses for any potential defeat.

I wish u all the best. To be honest true believers -if u r one- are always needed.

[seleucus Nicator]

By all means, Macedonian

I will hold my lines and come up after you complete your arguments. Please note howeve that it seems to me that the present turns to be a contest between Turkey and Greece.

Not surprising and I can find some "blame" to myself since I entered in sensitive for the Greeks areas. Obviously I don' t like carpets. Do not judge the catholic by a minor incident. It was as if because you know Nicator every Greek knows him. Ah, I perceive I am correct if I spell it Nicator-a -just to give u food for thought- speaking of who is aware of Greek reality. I very much doubt how many Greeks are really able to say this light shade to the name...

Put otherwise, learn your enemy to ...

Time out for the moment

Lets first clarify about the "carpet" issue , my main purpose is to saw that from my experience (and friends ) i have very positive view for the Turks and i don't think that is bad if a nation is polite and with good manners(exceptions always exist).
I think "carpet" was not such a good expression to give my thoughts.

That’s it for the time being “Macedonian”. Ah, tell me how does it feel having that funny state “FYROM” or should I say “Macedonia” stealing your history? Total luck of respect. Lineage once again does not help I think and Philippus is dead long ago… But it seems to me the first to be swept away is selfrespect for the others to respect you. Don’ t u think?

The biggest myth of modern Greece is that the Ancient Greek civilization belong to Greeks .
The Ancient Greek civilization belong to the whole world, especially to those who participated (they are not only Greeks)to the evolution of this culture.
Very few Slavomakedonjians believed that are straight descendants of the ancient Macedonians but the wrong policy (my opinion) of Greek government (romantic approach, hard line, denial the existence of some people that they wanted to self determinate as makedonjians) make this small minority to become majority today.
The period 1991-1996 we had the eruption of Greek nationalism (also in Greece give this "food" to the people)for this reason ,as a result the Greek governments follow this period a populist policy (this policy continue till today)and not a realistic one.
My personal opinion is that they should take the name Republic of Makedonjian and only history will saw us if they can survive as culture.

.

[Bananiot]

Here we go again, Kifeas wrote:

Lupusdiavoli, I do not know your background, where you live and where you come from. I do not share any of your views and ideas, neither does the vast majority of the GC society does! There are a few exceptions like Bananiot, but that is all about it. Thanks god, maybe only 1-2% of GCs.

In another topic, a couple of days ago he was more generous. He elevated us to 5%. Anyway, what I find interesting is the serge of bravery which is the trademark of all of Kifeas writings which is based on the assumption that by being a thorn in the side of the big boys you can solve your problems. The same people who are pursuing arrogant policies today were of the same philosophy back in the 60's. Their mistakes then cost us half of Cyprus. Their arrogance today (keeping wee Cyprus in splendid international isolation) can only bring more misery.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,

You never know. But let me say that your wish sounds like wishing payback of some sort (?)... Strange it is that a believer of such ideas wishes, of human rights particularly, wishes to a fellow human to have such misfortune. It is contradictory and I can only understand it in the sense that you believe that if I have the like experience then I will join you in your ideas.

My background? It doesn' t matter to you. That I have different beliefs is enough for you to wish me "all the best" in a way that simply verifies my words, ie. human rights and the same is a matter of power. Having no power you employ humanistic poems. If u were in the powerful position you would be able to make your wish to come true.

However our difference I was calm and gentle with you practising dialectic ways. Argument against argument and in several cases I did not hesitate to agree with you.

Once again I will say that you may believe whatever. I am not the one you have to blame for reality. Neither I am responsible to make you understand simple differences in terms like legality, human rights theory, idealistic values and the same. It takes time and the way someone interpretates them differs.

But since ever those who are weak suffer and those who possess power make other to suffer. This is human nature and human reality. Certainly those who want to change it -in the favour by the way- exist too.

In silent words they say... wait and the balance will shift and then we will show them. At the least I will not expect help from outsiders, nor I will try to find excuses for any potential defeat.

I wish u all the best. To be honest true believers -if u r one- are always needed.

Lupusdiavoli, in my book, when someone says he doesn't believe in human rights and even boasts to be a “cynical amoralist” and essentially an advocate of the "law of the jungle" in which everything is permissible and perfectly normal for the so-called big fish to eat the smaller one; then this person is also more than likely to play accordingly and violate human rights for the sake of political expediency and for the sake of his own egoistical benefit. Unfortunately, the only wish I can personally have for such a kind of person is for the worst to happen to him!

It is your right to try and sell your “darwinistic” perspective that human beings are illogical and amoralistic creatures driven by lowest level of “survival” instincts, just like animals; but it is also my right to regard you and anyone else that possesses and /or propagates the same views like yours, as a subhuman creature or at least a corrupted hypocrite!

Well my "friend," unfortunately for you, humans are not animals and their survival as a species, their development and their progress do not depend on the “law of the jungle,” as it is the case with animals, but mainly on the law of justice, respect and yes, human rights! You may wish to see the world going back to the ottoman or the medieval era and the dark ages, but unfortunately for you things have changed and will continue to change for the better, simply because humans are logical beings and not animals.