Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

Hello mem101. Welcome to the forum. Before you engage into further arguement with the person under the nickname Piratis let me give you a heads up. This individual is a fanatic to the utmost extreme. He will undermine any reason and explanation you make and keep repeating what he has been fed with. He is far passed the point of making an analytical arguement and is unable to contribut besides promoting hate. The document he showed regarding the Ottoman rule in Cyprus is from a source that is officially the subject of a political institution (meaning it can not present anything against the policies of that particular institution, i.e. the U.S. Congress) which recognizes the 100% Greek Cypriot Administration as the Government of Cyprus. I have showed him a credible and referenced document written by a GC historian which clearly describes the situation as you correctly have stated (which by the way the book favours the GC position in the Cyprus conflict), yet he still persists in trying to influence others through meaningless notes. So, before you engage any further, keep these in mind. And again, welcome.

p.s. Here is the reference I mentioned

The author has written his piece in favor of the GC side of the Cyprus problem (from The Rise and Fall of the Cyprus Republic by Kyriacos C. Markides, Yale University Press). I again ask all to read with an open heart and a clear conscience:

“The Turkish Cypriot conquest can be thought of as a turning point in the evolution of Cypriot society. Its effects were tantamount to a true revolution, but a revolution imposed from the outside. The conquest brought about three fundamental changes in the Cypriot social structure whose effects are still deeply felt: (1) the destruction of European feudalism (mainly by Franks and Venetians) (2) the restoration of the Greek Orthodox church to its former position of dominance, and (3) the settlement on Cyprus of a sizable Turkish minority.

The Turks once they conquered Cyprus, either killed or expelled the European nobles. The feudal system was abolished and land was distributed to the former serfs, who were Orthodox Christians, and to the newly arrived Muslim settlers. The Turkish conquest, furthermore, created ethnic heterogeneity. Turkish migrants settled in Cyprus, and gradually a sizeable Turkish community was formed, eventually composing 18 percent of the total population.

Last, and the most significant, the Turkish conquest restored the Greek Orthodox church to its former princely status and endowed it with unprecedented secular and spiritual powers. The authority vacuum created by the abolition of the aristocratic order was filled by the church, which became the most central institution in Greek Cypriot society. The Turks recognized only Orthodoxy as the official non-Muslim religion of the island, and they persecuted the Catholics. In short, the Turks reversed the situation that existed under feudalism. In addition, the sultan vested the church with special administrative privileges, such as collecting state taxes and officially representing the Orthodox Greek s in Istanbul. The archbishop was elevated to the status of Ethnarc, national leader or political spokesman for the Greek population. Consequently, the church of Cyprus became under Turkish rule the most authoritative and powerful institution on the island. It has been said that during the eighteenth century the archbishop’s political authority was almost equal, if not superior, t that of the Turkish Governor (Ref. below)”

Claude D. Cobham, Exerpta Cypria (Cambridge, Eng.: Cambridge University Press, 1908), pp. 458-59

[mem101]

When you speak of the ethnic cleansing you must not forget that it was Turkey that performed these actions and not the TCs. TCs are also the victims here along with the GCs (although obviously to a much lesser extent); do you think the TCs living in the south all wanted to leave behind their homes, etc and migrate north? It can also be argued that Turkey was excercising her right under The Treaty Of Guarantee to protect the island from enosis after the coup. I'm not necessarily trying to justify August 1974, just point out that its not quite as simple as one country invaded and occupied another and that TCs are to blame for that.


I read the rest of that article you took the excerpt from. Ottoman rule of Cyprus sounds like it was a bumpy ride to say the least but they did improve the system of administration if nothing else. Did you know that the TCs are the result of a combination of compulsory emmigration from Turkey of turks, ottomans and the families of occupying soldiers, as well as converted venetian catholics, and obviously mixed race relations with GCs. The TCs apparently united with the GCs in an uprising against the ottomans on one or two occasions.

Anyway the past is very complex. Here is a link to an article from the USA library congress pages which I think you will enjoy reading if you haven't already, its a sad story:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... CID+cy0053)




"The reasons it didn't work as it should is that it had many undemocratic and problematic parameters in it that the foreign creators of those agreements intentionally introduced.

So of course those agreements are not ideal, but they are the only legal thing that exists and until we agree to something different then everybody is obligated to respect those agreements.

Of course if it something better than those agreements, I would prefer it. And better is what they have in every other democratic country in the world. Cyprus is not the only multi-ethnic country. If we follow democracy and human rights then we can certainly have something better.

However since I doubt the Turkish side would accept what is better, and we would definitely reject something worst, then the only thing that remains are the 1960 agreements, or something similar that would not be better or worst for any side than those agreements. (unless you can think of a way that we can have new agreements that will be better for both sides than the 1960 agreements.)"



I guess this is exactly why we're here really; to come up with a solution which is better and not corrupted by the nations such as UK, USA, Turkey, Greece, etc. I am interested to hear what lupusdiavoli has to say about geopolitics of Cyprus today as my knowledge on that subject is very limited. I do believe that before a UNIVERSALLY BENEFICIAL and DESIRABLE solution is found however, that the economy of the north should improve. What's the alternative? A divided island, and an isolated ethnic group forever struggling for recognition.

[mem101]

Thanks for the welcome Murataga, what's your take on where we should/are able to go from here?

[Murataga]

mem101-

We (as TCs) want a “Partnership State of Cyprus” where the equal status and legitimacy of its co-founding parties is explicitly recognized and respected and that under it, neither side is allowed, directly or implicitly, to extend its will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other. The principles of bi-communality, political equality and bi-zonality are the key parameters for a settlement in Cyprus that have also been officially endorsed by the U.N. Security Council.

We want to live in Cyprus with GCs as our friends, neighbors, colleagues but not as our administrators. It is as simple and straightforward as that.

[Piratis]

Before you engage into further arguement with the person under the nickname Piratis let me give you a heads up. This individual is a fanatic to the utmost extreme. He will undermine any reason and explanation you make and keep repeating what he has been fed with. He is far passed the point of making an analytical arguement and is unable to contribut besides promoting hate. The document he showed regarding the Ottoman rule in Cyprus is from a source that is officially the subject of a political institution (meaning it can not present anything against the policies of that particular institution, i.e. the U.S. Congress) which recognizes the 100% Greek Cypriot Administration as the Government of Cyprus. I have showed him a credible and referenced document written by a GC historian which clearly describes the situation as you correctly have stated (which by the way the book favours the GC position in the Cyprus conflict), yet he still persists in trying to influence others through meaningless notes. So, before you engage any further, keep these in mind. And again, welcome.

The fanatic in this forum is non else than you.
What I support is legality, democracy, that all Cypriots should get the 100% of their human rights and that in Cyprus we should have no racist or other discriminations. About the past I have accepted and condemned all the wrong doings of the GC side.

On the contrary what you support is illegality and crimes and the racist separation of people along ethnic lines even if that translates to the ethnic cleansing and mass human rights violations of 100s of thousands of people. About the past you defended and excused every single crime you committed against us.

So it is clear who is the "fanatic to the utmost extreme" in here, and it is not me.

What I posted about the Ottoman era is the truth. I could have posted about that era from a Greek Cypriot website, but I didn't. Instead I typed in Google the keywords: Cyprus Ottoman Rule. The first result was from Britanica that you had to pay to see the whole of it. The second is from Wikipedia, that basically is saying the same things, however since you could claim that Wikipedia is unreliable I went on to the 3rd result which is a copy of the "country studies" of the US congress I posted here.

So I was not "fed" with anything, I found the information myself.
The one who is fed with propaganda is you. Apparently you were given a bunch of quotes that you believe serve the Turkish propaganda, and whenever you need to reply to something you open that propaganda toolbox of yours and bring out some quote that only its writer, you and people like you know about.

So it again clear who is fed with propaganda, and again it is you, not me.

About your claim that my source is not creditable because the US "recognizes the 100% Greek Cypriot Administration as the Government of Cyprus", I have to remind you a few things:

1) The whole world recognizes Republic of Cyprus. Not because they like us more than you, but because thats the only thing they could do. The occupation is so illegal, not even the best friends of Turkey can deny it.

2) The USA is in fact one of Turkey's best allies and friends. Their official policy about Cyprus today has nothing to do with 1571. Your claim that the Americans (your best friends) would intentionally lie about the Ottoman rule simply because they recognize Republic of Cyprus (which was formed in 1960) is totally absurd and ridiculous. If Americans would lie they would do that to benefit you, not us.

It is funny how the Turks butcher us by the thousands and oppress us, and instead of admitting it they are telling us that they are making us a favor!! But of course thats nothing new from the Turks. They called the Turkish invasion that killed 6000 and ethnically cleansed 200.000 people a "peace operation", and they are also denying the Armenian genocide and everything they did and they continue doing against the Kurds.

Mem, Murataga is a fanatic pro partitionist.
I, just like you, was born after most of the history we discuss happened. We can just stop discussing history and look in the future. What Cyprus needs is democracy, human rights for all without any racist discriminations. This is what Cyprus needs regardless of what happened in the past, and therefore we don't need to agree, or even discuss about it.

If however you feel that settling the past is necessary for reconciliation, then in the same way you expect us to show our regret for our wrong doings against you, we also expect you to show regret for your wrong doings against us (and stop doing more wrong doings and illegalities of course). I hope you understand this.

I guess this is exactly why we're here really; to come up with a solution which is better and not corrupted by the nations such as UK, USA, Turkey, Greece, etc.

The problem to this is: Do we agree on what is better? In 1960 we signed an agreement. In order to change it we have to agree that something else is better than that agreement. Can we?

I do believe that before a UNIVERSALLY BENEFICIAL and DESIRABLE solution is found however, that the economy of the north should improve. What's the alternative? A divided island, and an isolated ethnic group forever struggling for recognition.

How about improving the well being of TCs and at the same time restoring some of the legality and the human rights of Greek Cypriots?

[Piratis]

We want to live in Cyprus with GCs as our friends, neighbors, colleagues but not as our administrators. It is as simple and straightforward as that.

Fine, as long as you do that on your own land, not land stolen from us. We don't want to "administer" you, what we want is our homeland to be given back to us and to stop illegally occupying it.

By the way, why aren't the Kurdish minority in Turkey administering themselves as well? After all, they own the majority of land in Kurdistan and they didn't steal it from anybody. Double standards?

And what do you have to say about the Turks of Bulgaria. Just like the Turkish Cypriots they appeared in Bulgaria during the Ottoman rule. Should they now ethnically cleanse all Bulgarians from a part of Bulgaria so the Turkish minority there can have its own ethnically pure land to administer by themselves?

For that matter, do you know any minority in any country of the world that was given a separate part of the country because they wanted to be separate and administer themselves?

As I said above, on your own land do whatever you want, but you have no right to take ours.

[Murataga]

mem101- see what I mean?

[mem101]

Piratis, you can't compare those other situations to the Cyprus problem just because they involve people of "turkish" ethnic origin. They are completely different situations, different histories, lands and times. The Cyprus problem is unique for a massive variety of reasons including nationalism, ethnicism, its turbulent history, its location on the globe, the cold, etc. So many countries are involved 20th century cypriot history, too - USA, UK, USSR, Greece, Turkey. Are we going to resort to comparing the foriegn policies of all of those countries in the past century? I doubt anyone here even comes close to being qualified to do that.

Also, you say "OUR" land, but is it not also our land? My ancestors have lived on the island for AT LEAST 3 centuries.

[mem101]

I missed your precious post, P.

"I, just like you, was born after most of the history we discuss happened. We can just stop discussing history and look in the future. What Cyprus needs is democracy, human rights for all without any racist discriminations. This is what Cyprus needs regardless of what happened in the past, and therefore we don't need to agree, or even discuss about it."


"How about improving the well being of TCs and at the same time restoring some of the legality and the human rights of Greek Cypriots?"

I agree we should stop discussing the past and with this last comment. Do you have any suggestions that would meet this criteria?

[mem101]

And concerning the relationship between the two of you and accusations of being fanatics, I think if we all stopped resorting to bringing up past wrongs and concentrate on where we can go from here we might actually come up with some interesting suggestions. Everyone who has posted on this thread so far appears to be intelligent and everyone has a common dream - lasting peace for all on the island of Cyprus!