Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I suppose, what I am describing is a confederation of sorts, and if so that would be the end of the TRNC which is a republic

You must be kidding right? "trnc" a republic? "trnc" is nothing. That name is just how the Turks call the area of Republic of Cyprus that they illegally occupy.

For your information Greek Cypriots have long accepted their part in the wrong doings. The leaders of the coup in both Cyprus and Greece were in fact jailed, and nobody is trying to excuse their actions.

What have the Turks done? Have they admitted the 100 times more crimes the committed against us since the day they set their foot on this island until today? Have they send even one person responsible for illegalities and crimes in prison? Have they at least accepted that they were wrong? NO. On the contrary they continue with illegalities and crimes using excuses that expired decades ago.

[Piratis]

If the TCs are given a fair chance to start "catching up" then when the island is finally and truly reunited, all citizens will be so much better for it don't you think?

And when will you give back the lands that you stole from us? Before or after "catching up"?

Imagine two people that they don't trust each either. One stole something of one and then the other took something from the first. Now they both have a problem because they are both missing something.

How do you solve the problem for both people? Think about it. You will see there are not many ways.

[mem101]

It is not recognised officially by any country other than Turkey but it IS a republic - "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." It is heavily dependant on Turkey, unrecognised by the rest of the world, etc but that is what it claims to be and that is what it would be to any other nation IF they were to recognise it as a legal entity in its current form.

"For your information Greek Cypriots have long accepted their part in the wrong doings. The leaders of the coup in both Cyprus and Greece were in fact jailed, and nobody is trying to excuse their actions."

When I BREIFLY spoke of acknowledging wrong doings I was simply referring a post made by another member but thanks for that information anyway.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know what "100 times more crimes" you are talking about. We must have read some seriously contradictory history books! Anyway I'd rather not get into a discussion about who is right and who is wrong because it would likely never end.

All I'm trying to do assess the situation as it is today, make suggestions as to how that situation can be resolved, and discuss them with my fellow cypriots. I would be much more interested to hear what you think about some of the other aspects of my posts. Even if you think I haven't made a worthwhile suggestion I would like to hear you reasons why.

[mem101]

The Immovable Property Commission may be far from perfect but it is a step in the right direction at least wouldn't you say? Yes, a part of "catching up" would be to begin settling the property issue.

"Imagine two people that they don't trust each either. One stole something of one and then the other took something from the first. Now they both have a problem because they are both missing something.

How do you solve the problem for both people? Think about it. You will see there are not many ways."

I couldn't agree with this more, thats what we're trying to find a solution for isn't it?

[lupusdiavoli]

mem101

Speaking in terms I would rather say skeptical. That points to a con-partition mood. But I could also add that it depends on the circumstances in case I had to make a choice. Unification is not the ultimate for me. Is not something I could die for…

You have to define the reasons of the problem to find an appropriate answer. By pointing towards trust and building trust this means that the source of the problem is the lack of trust. Is it really? I don’ t think so.

It is a political problem and a complex one. Trust is a minor element. You can even have a state without trust. It is not a fundamental element of having a state.

Furthermore do you consider politics are much related with trust? By faith? I could agree on the “give and take”. If that means trust to you I don’ t mind. For me it means what it is, “give and take”. Give and take of what? The basis here is the need of the “object” given or taken. Who wants what?

An idealistic answer would be that everybody wants the same and that is unification and peace. Yes, right. Sorry utopia does not exist. Yes there is something called the “good nature”… However it applies between people on a single level. Not in politics. So if as I said the problem is defined in political terms then ethics, because “the good nature” is plainly ethics have nothing to do with the problem. Unless u see the problem of politics with ethical eyes?

Your second argument sounds more solid. It contemplates the problem in economical terms. So, can u solve a political problem speaking in economic terms? I could easily remind you of Germany. It is one unified state again. The Easters are somewhat second rate indeed but still one single state exists and function in favor all. In the same sense even today among communities there are rates. The rich and the poor and so on. Do u want me to make a Marxist analysis on the issue? Let’s extinguish the classes then for a better world! A sun that would never rise on the horizon! Or in a liberal way. Make commerce not war! An old idea of 200 years ago. Commerce is everywhere and conflict as well.

There is a paradox u know. U spoke before for one single nation and now it turns that you r the one who employ duality… Let the TC “catch up”. Catch up who? Their fellow countrymen? OK just playing with the words. An argument really exists here. A balance between the two sides will help for sure but it will not solve the problem.

Politics are politics. And that defines fundamentally the problem on the island. It is the child of conflict. Not of an ethnic one. Just give a look one the map… Geopolitics. Good nature has nothing to do with this. We –me and you- can easily be friends. We can easily be associates pursuing profit. If it is a matter of geopolitics as I think there are other priorities.

[mem101]

OK, I haven't addressed the problem fully for what it truly is. I haven't addressed the geopolitics of the situation. What I have done is to try to take the perspective of the citizens of the island. Take the TCs perspective for example, are they better off working towards a united Cyprus, or working towards gaining direct trade, direct flights, and hopefully, one day, recognition from the nations of the world for the TRNC? I would guess the latter for fear of being second rate citizens, and for fear of having a repeat of history (at least on an economical level).

As far as the geopolitics go, you'll have to excuse my ignorance. I know that Turkey's interests lie at least partially in protecting her southern flank but also that she is somewhat limited in her actions due to her status as an EU candidate. And Britain, I'm sure would like to keep the bases as long as possible but I'm not sure how important they are today as compared to the 50s before the space age really took off.

Anyway, what do you think the priorities are if the problem truly is a geopolitical one?

FYI, I'm sure its clear I haven't studied politics, I just have an interest in it; and in history.

[Piratis]

It is not recognised officially by any country other than Turkey but it IS a republic - "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus." It is heavily dependant on Turkey, unrecognised by the rest of the world, etc but that is what it claims to be and that is what it would be to any other nation IF they were to recognise it as a legal entity in its current form.

So it would be a republic IF it was recognized as such. I could also be the president if everybody else recognized that I am, but if just me and my father claim that I am the president then it would just mean I am crazy

There is just one state in Cyprus, the Republic of Cyprus, and there are no "ifs" and "whens". Maybe one day the TCs will get some direct flights and trade, but the pseudo state can not be recognized as such thing would be against international law.

As for the rest of your post, I don't know what "100 times more crimes" you are talking about. We must have read some seriously contradictory history books!

So you are are telling me you don't know what happens to Cyprus during the last 33 years, or about the Ottoman rule of Cyprus? Surely if you want to blame GCs for some past actions that lasted less than a decade you should also recognize your own actions that lasted far longer and caused way more casualties to us.

I am just telling you this because you have to understand that if you expect some moves from us in order to forgive us for past events, then you should also do the same and ask for our forgiveness as well.

The Immovable Property Commission may be far from perfect but it is a step in the right direction at least wouldn't you say?

No I wouldn't say is as important as you think it is.

Do you think that if I go with several million pounds and buy lots of cheap property from a few thousand Kurds in eastern Turkey, that I can then declare a separate country on the property I own there?
You can buy property within a country, but you can not buy a country.
The "trnc" is now trying to do just that, pay to buy the property from some GCs and then claim that those lands do not belong to Republic of Cyprus anymore. As you understand this is not the case.

"Imagine two people that they don't trust each either. One stole something of one and then the other took something from the first. Now they both have a problem because they are both missing something.

How do you solve the problem for both people? Think about it. You will see there are not many ways."

I couldn't agree with this more, thats what we're trying to find a solution for isn't it?

Ok. So you restrict us from some of our rights, and we restrict you from some of yours. So either you should give us back all of our rights and get all of your rights, or you can give us back some of our rights, and in return you can get some of yours. When you give us more, you get more.

For example, you could could give back Famagusta, and in return get direct trade. Then give Morfou and get direct flights etc. When you returned back to RoC everything that belongs to RoC, you would get everything that belongs to you as well.

[BirKibrisli]

Gardash?

Hosh Geldin...

I cannot but agree that the reality on the ground is,as you say,imposed by the gun by the "victor". Nicely put. It doesn' t mean that I like it or dislike it. This is the sense of reality after all. It is what it is and not what it "should be". The meaning of the term "nation" is far from the way u used it. It is may be the case that you meant one single state. State and nation are different terms. But yes legally speaking in a constitutional sense it "should be" one single state.

You refer to common culture, that is mostly popular culture. Nevertheless culture has many faces and different versions. Not everything is common. It is not even necessary to have everything in common anyway to live side by side. You think of reality in a different sense and that is acceptable. I do not mind at all. I prefer another one. I do not know about the sun etc. It could help if I saw some arguments instead of imaginative wording.

The issue is basically that u perceive the solution in finding common ground between the 2 ethnic elements of the island. Even better u think that if you assimilate them or reinvent them as one they will stand under the sun... as one. This is an old idea. The same experiment failed elsewhere. The blood through the process is still fresh u know.

You can still maintain your differences and your ways and accept the other on a mtual base. BUT politics are in the way. And history as well even yes there are people from each side, I accept and I know from experience, that had or have their moments together. This however does not mean one nation. A Cypriot nation is an artificial term. A Cyprus state no.

For the moment the sun has not yet rise. I don' t even know if it will ever follow that path. Even the metaphor of using the sun is an old idea. I recon its origin clearly. The sun I cannot see. Anyway I prefer darkness. It goes together with my diavolic nature!

I like calling people "gardash" to see their reactions,especially if I don't know anything about them.That tells me more than 100 of their posts.
So you don;t like being called gardash?Would you prefer I called you "kardesh" instead?

I am of the opinion that you cannot live side by side with people who hate your guts.The best you can do is to arm yourself to the teeth,and hope that that will deter your neighbour from attacking you. But if people's sense of justice is violated they will not forget the past and they will certainly never forgive.Piratis' posts are proof of what I say...

Cyprus problem cannot be reduced to what happened in the past 33 years. But however you look at it,one ends up eventually at 1571.It is too much don't you think to expect Greek Cypriots to pay the price for the indulgences of one wine-loving Ottoman Sultan?Or the power and global position hunting big states like Britain,USA,USSR etc??? You want to get real,lupus kardesh? Well tell me how else you will make peace soup in Cyprus from the ingredients you got,if not by choosing the only sensible and viable solution which is the one state,one nation,one people solution required by reunification???

[mem101]

"Maybe one day the TCs will get some direct flights and trade, but the pseudo state can not be recognized as such thing would be against international law."



The reality of the situation is that recognition from the bulk of the world is not on the cards while the UN security council resolutions are in force, true. But if direct trade and flights are established, and recognition is gained from OIC nations, and further UN/EU peace referendi fail to resolve the problem, does it not follow that UN will change its policy towards TRNC. When you think about it objectively, the RoC was established in 1960 as a system governed by two ethnic groups in specific proportions. No such government or republic as outlined in the 1960 agreement exists today, and the RoC is only the legal government because the UN said so in 1983 when the TRNC announced itself.



"So you are are telling me you don't know what happens to Cyprus during the last 33 years, or about the Ottoman rule of Cyprus? Surely if you want to blame GCs for some past actions that lasted less than a decade you should also recognize your own actions that lasted far longer and caused way more casualties to us.

I am just telling you this because you have to understand that if you expect some moves from us in order to forgive us for past events, then you should also do the same and ask for our forgiveness as well. "



The Ottoman rule of Cyprus was a peaceful time on the island! The GCs actually invited the turks to invade in order to liberate them from the Venetians, and when they arrived, they helped with the conquest and the ousting of Venetian settlers. The GCs essentially had complete autonomy - the Archbishop was their leader and well respected by the Ottomans. Obviously, no 300 year period is ever going to be completely free of troubles but I was given to understand that the Cyprus problem only really began at the end of the 19th century when the Ottomans made a pact with Britain which involved handing over the island's administration.

As for the last 33 years, they are the result of events that took place since the turn of the century, and particularly since 1960. And yes I do acknowledge that crimes were committed on both sides, most notably on the turkish side, TMTs contribution towards fuelling inter-ethnic violence. I do think its interesting to note that TMT was armed by Turkey, and that the EOKA and Makarios were bred by Athens through over half a century of enosis propoganda. In fact I've read reports of everyday Cypriot civilians helping each through crises in the 60s.



"Ok. So you restrict us from some of our rights, and we restrict you from some of yours. So either you should give us back all of our rights and get all of your rights, or you can give us back some of our rights, and in return you can get some of yours. When you give us more, you get more.

For example, you could could give back Famagusta, and in return get direct trade. Then give Morfou and get direct flights etc. When you returned back to RoC everything that belongs to RoC, you would get everything that belongs to you as well."



Am I right to assume then, that you would go back to the system of government established 1960? Do you think that this is what the bulk of Cypriots want? It failed didn't it? You can blame Makarios and EOKA for pursuing enosis, the TMT for provoking inter-ethnic violence, the coupists, and finally turkey for invading, but at the end of the day the system failed. History teaches us to learn from our mistakes.

[Piratis]

The reality of the situation is that recognition from the bulk of the world is not on the cards while the UN security council resolutions are in force, true. But if direct trade and flights are established, and recognition is gained from OIC nations, and further UN/EU peace referendi fail to resolve the problem, does it not follow that UN will change its policy towards TRNC. When you think about it objectively, the RoC was established in 1960 as a system governed by two ethnic groups in specific proportions. No such government or republic as outlined in the 1960 agreement exists today, and the RoC is only the legal government because the UN said so in 1983 when the TRNC announced itself.

What you forgot is the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 people and that one country invaded and occupied another. This is why the occupation and the "trnc" are illegal. The UN resolutions simply record this fact. In the 21st century you can not create a country by ethnically cleansing the population of an area and replacing it with others. This could happen some 100s of years ago when international laws and human rights did not exist, but today such things simply are not acceptable.

The Ottoman rule of Cyprus was a peaceful time on the island! The GCs actually invited the turks to invade in order to liberate them from the Venetians, and when they arrived, they helped with the conquest and the ousting of Venetian settlers. The GCs essentially had complete autonomy - the Archbishop was their leader and well respected by the Ottomans. Obviously, no 300 year period is ever going to be completely free of troubles but I was given to understand that the Cyprus problem only really began at the end of the 19th century when the Ottomans made a pact with Britain which involved handing over the island's administration.

Well, those that gave you to understand what you understood, obviously saw "the problem" just from their side. For them of course it was not a problem when Greek Cypriots were ruled by the Turks for 3 centuries. For them a problem existed only when they were the ones having it.


Here is a description for those years from the country studies of the USA Library of congress:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cytoc.html

Am I right to assume then, that you would go back to the system of government established 1960? Do you think that this is what the bulk of Cypriots want? It failed didn't it? You can blame Makarios and EOKA for pursuing enosis, the TMT for provoking inter-ethnic violence, the coupists, and finally turkey for invading, but at the end of the day the system failed. History teaches us to learn from our mistakes.

The reasons it didn't work as it should is that it had many undemocratic and problematic parameters in it that the foreign creators of those agreements intentionally introduced.

So of course those agreements are not ideal, but they are the only legal thing that exists and until we agree to something different then everybody is obligated to respect those agreements.

Of course if it something better than those agreements, I would prefer it. And better is what they have in every other democratic country in the world. Cyprus is not the only multi-ethnic country. If we follow democracy and human rights then we can certainly have something better.

However since I doubt the Turkish side would accept what is better, and we would definitely reject something worst, then the only thing that remains are the 1960 agreements, or something similar that would not be better or worst for any side than those agreements. (unless you can think of a way that we can have new agreements that will be better for both sides than the 1960 agreements.)