Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

Turkish-Cypriot well said, thank you for a clear point of view and a fair account of the issue at hand. You have summed it up well.

Zan I think there are some Greek Speaking Cypriots who appreciate what that really means. Some of us have struggled against getting swallowed up by a Greek identity.

I would like to hear from you, some of the things that a united Cyprus could put in place to ensure that what you see as Turkish Cypriot identity and what I see as a Cypriot identity (when I say Cypriot I refer to a Cypriot identity inclussive of Turkish/ Greek/Armenian) is maintained.

I would really appreciate a response. Cheers

[zan]

Lena wrote:

You are wrong Zan, the only thing that you have is not just the title…is what is in the name of a TC. I can tell you the same thing. That I have just that, that I am GC. What that mean? Come on Zan. You have more than you want to present. Is our fault that you are a minority even in the north? With all the Turks around you? Turks are not the minority in a TC community but TC are. So we are the bad people that we want to change you, right? TC used to speak Greek and Turkish as well…how many TC they know Greek now? We, the GC, influenced them, right? We are trying to make them forget about the fact that they are TC…right?

The RoC, translated all the documents for you, they didn’t force you to learn Greek to be able to apply for ID, passport or anything you want. They even hired stuff that knows Turkish to help you. Whenever you go …to a government office there is a Turkish office for the TC. But we force you to change what you are…right? They offer for free to us Turkish lessons just to make sure that we will be able to communicate with the TC if we want to. But we want to change you…to turn you to something we want. OK! Whatever you say my dear.

I am saying that we are perfect but don’t tell me that we don’t respect you.

Lena
You are confusing so many issues here. The point is that the RoC as it stands is catering for only the Greek culture and doing very little for us. I have not said that you guys are out to get us with intent in my post? What can happen though is that if our culture and our existence are sidelined for whatever reason then the natural way for things to go will be a constant fight for us. Although having said that that there are people in the south that would be more than happy to have us become Muslim Cypriots rather than who we really are, that is not the point I was trying to make. You are right in saying that we chose to have many Turks living with us in the north but that was a choice, as stated above between losing our Turkishness or becoming more Turkish. In that case I chose to become more Turkish. I do not feel any shame in being Turkish, as some would suggest I should. The comment you made about the translation of documents is more loaded than I think you imagined. The British government translates many documents for many minorities in the UK but they have no real claim to the island as TCs do. Can you not see the difference? Your comment puts us in minority status at a stroke with no rights to any claim to the island ever belonging, in part to us. The issue of TCs on the island is different to almost any other place in the world when it comes to claiming joint ownership and I am sorry but you do not have sovereignty over the island.

[Piratis]

I have spoken with a man who claims to have been a close personal friend of Nico Sampson in his latter years. I have seen the photographs of him and Sampson together so I have no reason to doubt him. Sampson told him that Makarios engineered the coup to discredit the greek junta, knowing that they were about to fall. He was aware that his palace would be taken, and had ample time to flee to Malta. Sampson, a relatively simple partisan fighter, was made the fall guy and lost all face that he might ever have had after his displacement.

OK, that explains from where all the misinformation about Makarios comes from. Samson was an EOKA-B terrorist and belonged to the Grivas camp. They were the ones collaborating with the Greek Junta and they tried to assassinate Makarios because they saw him as an obstacle to their aim. Samson and the Grivas camp hated the guts of Makarios, and I am sure Samson hated Makarios even more after his was jailed for his participation in the coup. So it is no wonder that Samson would say as much lies as possible to discredit Makarios.
I don't know how much you know this friend of Samson, but I suggest you choose better friends.
Makarios made mistakes and if you consider the young age of the Republic, the climate of that era, the paramilitary organizations funded by outsiders and the problematic constitution he was given to work with, then I really do not blame him. Who committed the crimes from the GC side are Grivas and his gang, part of which Samson, and probably his friend, are.

Here is the speech of Makarios at the UN after the coup and before the Turkish invasion:

I would like at the outset to express my warmest thanks to the members of the Security Council for the keen interest they have shown in the critical situation created in Cyprus after the coup, which was organised by the military regime of Greece and was put into effect by the Greek officers serving in and commanding the Cyprus National Guard. I am particularly grateful that the Security Council has agreed to postpone its meeting until my arrival here to give me the opportunity of addressing it on the recent dramatic events in Cyprus.

What has been happening in Cyprus since last Monday morning is a real tragedy. The military regime of Greece has callously violated the independence of Cyprus. Without trace of respect for the democratic rights of the Cypriot people, without trace of respect for the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, the Greek junta has extended its dictatorship to Cyprus. It is indeed a fact that for some time now their intention was becoming obvious. The people of Cyprus had for a long time feeling that a coup by the Greek junta was brewing, and this feeling became more intense during the recent weeks when the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B', directed from Athens, had renewed its wave of violence.

I knew all along that the illegal organisation had its roots and supply resources in Athens. I became aware that the Greek officers staffing and commanding the National Guard were recruiting members for that organisation, and they supported it in various ways to the point of access to the munition supply stores of the National Guard. In the camps of the National Guard, the Greek officers were conducting open propaganda in favour of that illegal organisation and turned the National Guard from an organ of the state into an instrument of subversion. Whenever, from time to time, I complained to Athens about unbecoming conduct by Greek officers of the National Guard, the reply was that if I had concrete evidence in proof thereof those found guilty would be recalled. From the whole tenor of their attitude, I received the unmistakable impression that their standard response was a pretence of innocence. A few days ago documents came into the hands of the Cyprus police clearly proving that 'EOKA B' was an appendage of the Athens regime.

Funds were being remitted from Athens for the upkeep of this organisation and detailed directives regarding its actions were also given to it. I then found it necessary myself to address a letter to the President of the Greek regime, General Gizikis, asking him to give orders for the cessation of the violence and bloodshed by 'EOKA B' and for its dissolution. I also requested him to recall the Greek officers serving with the National Guard, adding that my intention was to reduce the numerical strength of this force and to turn it into an organ of the Cyprus State. I was waiting for a reply. My impression was that the Athens regime did not favour the reduction of the force, much less the withdrawal of the Greek officers.

The Greek Ambassador in Cyprus called on me, on instructions from his Government, in order to explain to me that the decrease in the numerical strength of the National Guard or the withdrawal of the Greek officers would weaken the defence of Cyprus in case of danger from Turkey. This was an argument which, even though it appeared logical, was not convincing because I knew that behind this argument other interests were hidden. I replied that as things developed I consider the danger from Turkey of a lesser degree than the danger from them. And it was proved that my fears were justified.

On Saturday, 13 July, a conference under the presidency of General Gizikis was held in Athens, which lasted for many hours. It was attended by the Greek Chief of Staff of the armed forces, the Ambassador of Greece to Cyprus, the commander of the National Guard with the purpose of discussing the content of my letter. As was stated in a relevant communiqué' issued at the end of this conference, it was to be reconvened on Monday, 15 July. The reference in the communiqué' to a second conference was deceiving. For a while on Monday I was waiting for a reply to my letter, the reply came, and it was the coup.

On that day, I returned from my summerhouse on the Troodos Mountains, where I had spent the weekend, and by 8 a.m. I was at my office at the Presidential Palace. Half an hour later I was welcoming in the reception room a group of boys and girls, members of the Greek Orthodox Youth from Cairo who came to Cyprus as my guests for a five days. Hardly had I greeted them when the first shots were heard. Within seconds the shots became more frequent and a member of the Presidential Guard informed me that armoured cars and tanks had passed the fence and were already in the yard of the Presidential Palace, which was shaking from mortar shells. The situation soon became critical I tried to call the Cyprus radio station for the purpose of issuing a special broadcast announcing that the Presidential Palace was under attack, but I realised that the lines were cut off. Heavy shelling was ever increasing. How my life was saved seemed like a providential miracle. When I eventually found myself in the area of Paphos, I addressed the people of Cyprus from a local radio station informing them that I am alive and that will struggle with them against the dictatorship, which the Greek regime is trying to impose.

I do not intend to occupy the time of the members of the Security Council with my personal adventure. I simply wish to add that during the second day of the armed attack the armoured cars and tanks were moving towards Paphos, while at the same time a small warship of the National Guard began shelling the Bishophric of Paphos where I was staying. Under the circumstances, I found it advisable to leave Cyprus rather than fall into the hands of the Greek junta.

I am grateful to the British Government, which made available a helicopter to pick me up from Paphos, transfer me to the British bases, and from there by plane to Malta and London. I am also grateful to the Special Representative of the Secretary-General and to the Commander of the Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus for the interest, which they had shown for my safety. My presence in this room of the Security Council was made possible thanks to the help given to me by the British Government and the representatives of the Secretary-General, Dr. Waldheim, whose keen concern for me and for the critical situation which developed in Cyprus moves every fibre of my heart.

I do not know as yet all the details of the Cyprus crisis caused by the Greek military regime. I am afraid that the number of casualties is large and that the material destruction is heavy. What is, however, our primary concern at present is the ending of the tragedy.

When I reached London, I was informed of the content of the speech of the representative of the Greek junta to the United Nations. I was surprised at the way they are trying to deceive world public opinion. Without a blush, the Greek junta is making efforts to simplify the situation, claiming that it is not involved in the armed attack and that the developments of the last few days are an internal matter of the Greek Cypriots.

I do not believe that there are people who accept the allegations of the Greek military regime. The coup did not come about under such circumstances as to he considered an internal matter of the Greek Cypriots. It is clearly an invasion from outside, in flagrant violation of the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus. The so-called coup was the work of the Greek officers staffing and commanding the National Guard. I must also underline the fact that the Greek contingent, composed of 950 officers and men stationed in Cyprus by virtue of the Treaty of Alliance, played a predominant role in this aggressive affair against Cyprus. The capture of the airport outside the capital was carried out by officers and men of the Greek contingent campaign near the airport.

It is enough to state on this point that certain photographs appearing in the world press show armoured vehicles and tanks belonging to the Greek contingent in Cyprus. On the other hand, the Greek officers serving with the National Guard were directing the operations. In these operations, they recruited many members of the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B', whom they armed with weapons of the National Guard.

If the Greek officers serving in the National Guard were not involved, how does one explain the fact that among the casualties in battle were Greek officers whose remains were transported to Greece and buried there? If Greek officers did not carry out the coup, how does one explain the fact of night flights of Greek aircraft transporting to Cyprus personnel in civilian clothes and taking back to Greece dead and wounded men? There is no doubt that the coup was organised by the Greek junta and was carried out by the Greek officers commanding the National Guard and by the officers and men of the Greek contingent stationed in Cyprus - and it was reported as such by the press around the globe.

The coup caused much bloodshed and took a great toll of human lives. It was faced with the determined resistance of the legal security forces and the resistance of the Greek people of Cyprus. I can say with certainty that the resistance and the reaction of the Greek Cypriot people against the conspirators will not end until there is a restoration of their freedom and democratic rights. The Cypriot people will never bow to dictatorship, even though for the moment the brutal force of the armoured cars and tanks may have prevailed.

After the coup, the agents of the Greek regime in Cyprus appointed a well-known gun-man, Nicos Samson as President, who in turn appointed as ministers known elements and supporters of the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B'.

It may be alleged that what took place in Cyprus is a revolution and that a Government was established based on revolutionary law. This is not the case. No revolution took place in Cyprus, which could be considered as an internal matter. It was an invasion, which violated the independence and the sovereignty of the Republic. And the invasion is continuing so long as there are Greek officers in Cyprus. The results of this invasion will be catalytic for Cyprus if there is no return to constitutional normality and if democratic freedoms are not restored.

For the purpose of misleading world public opinion, the military regime of Greece announced yesterday the gradual replacement of the Greek officers of the National Guard. But the issue is not their replacement; the issue is their withdrawal. The gesture of replacement has the meaning of admission that the Greek officers now serving in the National Guard were those who carried out the coup. Those officers, however, did not act on their own initiative but upon instructions from Athens, and their replacements will also follow instructions from the Athens regime. Thus the National Guard will always remain an instrument of the Greek military regime, and I am certain that the members of the Security Council understand this ploy.

It may be said that it was the Cyprus Government, which invited the Greek officers to staff the National Guard. I regret to say that it was a mistake on my part to bestow upon them so much trust and confidence. They abused that trust and confidence and, instead of helping in the defence of the Island's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity, they themselves became the aggressors.

I am obliged to say that the policy of the military regime in Greece towards Cyprus, and particularly towards the Greek Cypriots, has been insincere. I wish to stress that it was a policy of duplicity.

For some time talks were going on between the Greek and Turkish Cypriots in search of a peaceful solution to the Cyprus problem, which on many occasions has occupied the time of the Security Council and the General Assembly of the United Nations. The representative of the Secretary General and two constitutional experts from Greece and Turkey have been attending the talks. The Security Council has repeatedly renewed, twice yearly, the mandate of the peace-keeping force in Cyprus, expressing every time hope for a speedy solution of the problem.

It cannot be said that up to now the progress of the talks has been satisfactory. But how could there be any progress in the talks while the policy on Cyprus of the regime in Athens has been double-faced? It was agreed by all the parties concerned that the talks were taking place on the basis of independence. The regime of Athens also agreed to that, and time and again the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs declared that the position of Greece on this issue was clear. If that were the case, why had the military regime of Greece created and supported the terrorist organisation 'EOKA B', whose purpose was stated to be the union of Cyprus with Greece and whose members called themselves 'unionists'?

Inside the camps of the National Guard, the Greek officers continually charged that while Enosis was feasible its realisation was undermined by me. When reminded that Greece had made its position clear on this and that it supported independence, their reply was that no attention should be given to the words of diplomats. Under such circumstances how was it possible for the talks to arrive at a positive result? The double-faced policy of the Greek regime was one of the main obstacles to the progress of the talks.

In the circumstances that have now been created in Cyprus, I cannot foresee the prospects of the talks. I would rather say that there are no prospects at all. An agreement that may be reached by the talks would be devoid of any value because there is no elected leadership to deal with the matter. The coup d'etat of the military regime of Greece constitutes an arrest of the progress of the talks towards a solution.

Moreover, it will be a continuous source of anomaly in Cyprus, the repercussions of which will be very grave and far reaching, if this situation is permitted to continue even for a short time.

I appeal to the members of the Security Council to do their utmost to put an end to this anomalous situation, which was created by the coup of Athens. I call upon the Security Council to use all ways and means at its disposal so that the constitutional order in Cyprus and the democratic rights of the people of Cyprus can be reinstated without delay.

As I have already stated, the events in Cyprus do not constitute an internal matter of the Greeks of Cyprus. The Turks of Cyprus are also affected. The coup of the Greek junta is an invasion, and from its consequences the whole people of Cyprus suffers, both Greeks and Turks. The United Nations has a peace-keeping force stationed in Cyprus. It is not possible for the role of that peace-keeping force to be effective under conditions of a military coup. The Security Council should call upon the military regime of Greece to withdraw from Cyprus the Greek officers serving in the National Guard, and to put an end to its invasion of Cyprus.

I think that, with what I have placed before you, I have given a picture of the situation. I have no doubt that an appropriate decision of the Security Council will put an end to the invasion and restore the violated independence of Cyprus and the democratic rights of the Cypriot people

[zan]

Turkish-Cypriot well said, thank you for a clear point of view and a fair account of the issue at hand. You have summed it up well.

Zan I think there are some Greek Speaking Cypriots who appreciate what that really means. Some of us have struggled against getting swallowed up by a Greek identity.

I would like to hear from you, some of the things that a united Cyprus could put in place to ensure that what you see as Turkish Cypriot identity and what I see as a Cypriot identity (when I say Cypriot I refer to a Cypriot identity inclussive of Turkish/ Greek/Armenian) is maintained.

I would really appreciate a response. Cheers

Sorry Humanist missed this post and am off to work now with all my aches and pains intact. The quick answer is of course in the detail of everyday life. Moving forward from today in which the realities are that there are two sovereign states on the island for whatever reasons that you guys keep asking us to forget about but in reality is a vital part of the deal to be done. We cannot be downgraded, after all that has happened to minority status so figures of 18%, that are thrown about, has to be rethought.

Sorry really must go now but perhaps you could give me your version based on the very short examples I have given you.

[LENA]

Lena said

I am NOT saying that we are perfect but don’t tell me that we don’t respect you.

Lena
You are confusing so many issues here. The point is that the RoC as it stands is catering for only the Greek culture and doing very little for us. I have not said that you guys are out to get us with intent in my post? What can happen though is that if our culture and our existence are sidelined for whatever reason then the natural way for things to go will be a constant fight for us. Although having said that that there are people in the south that would be more than happy to have us become Muslim Cypriots rather than who we really are, that is not the point I was trying to make. You are right in saying that we chose to have many Turks living with us in the north but that was a choice, as stated above between losing our Turkishness or becoming more Turkish. In that case I chose to become more Turkish. I do not feel any shame in being Turkish, as some would suggest I should. The comment you made about the translation of documents is more loaded than I think you imagined. The British government translates many documents for many minorities in the UK but they have no real claim to the island as TCs do. Can you not see the difference? Your comment puts us in minority status at a stroke with no rights to any claim to the island ever belonging, in part to us. The issue of TCs on the island is different to almost any other place in the world when it comes to claiming joint ownership and I am sorry but you do not have sovereignty over the island.

First, a small correction to my post that I just notice.

Now about you Zan can you explain to me what you mean by the emphasise part of your post? What you are? You are not Cypriot? I am sorry if you are not may be I will end this conversation here.

I am not the right person to give you all the laws and the details what the GC government give to TC…but I didn’t say anything more than I saw. Whenever I went for government papers, driving licence, ID, passports, etc there is a TC department, lots of translated documents and stuff member there to help the TC. I don’t know if the UK done the translation and who decided to be done but is what I saw. Can you explain me why I have in my first ID and my first passport Turkish? Is because then UK told us to do? Come on Zan things are not so bad as you want to present them. Yes I agree there are thousands to be done but at least you are in that way.

What did you do for the GC? NOTHING
Do you want us? NO
Do you want to live to a united Cyprus? NO
Do you want partition? YES

You told me that I don’t see any of the facts. Well tell me how much is the GC population in the island? How much is the population of the TC in the island? What the laws say about a government? That governments have to represent their citizens? I asked you again. Do you want us to stop getting married and having children until you become equal? The fact is that you are a minority in the whole Cyprus and in the north among the rest of the Turks. When you were not a minority in Cyprus? The laws and the government have to be fair representing the percentages of their citizens. It bother you so much that the percentage of TC comparing with GC is lower than the ½ but doesn’t bother you because is lower than the ½ of the Turks living north.

If it was possible to eliminate us you were going to do it Zan?

[kalahari]

Piratis

Thank you for putting up the contents of the speech. I had not been able to find this text before. It does put things into context for me.

As always, answers bring with them fresh questions.

Given Makarios' speech, and the events that followed the Greek invasion of Cyprus (a phrase you do not see on this forum too often), why then do the Cypriot people of the south – who undoubtedly revere Makarios – continue to court Hellenism and fly the Greek flag? And why, given Makarios' salvation at the hands of the British, do they group the British people under headings like "unethical British fuckers".

I am also puzzled by the reticence to see the British minority in Cyprus as significant. Estimates for Cypriots of British extraction range from 50 to 70,000 – so anything from 6 to 9 % of the population is of British extraction. I quote humanist:

I would like to hear from you, some of the things that a united Cyprus could put in place to ensure that what you see as Turkish Cypriot identity and what I see as a Cypriot identity (when I say Cypriot I refer to a Cypriot identity inclussive of Turkish/ Greek/Armenian) is maintained.

Where do the British Cypriots figure in the Cypriot identity? After all their contribution has been and continues to be extraordinarily significant, and beneficial too.

I have been trying to research the ethnic demographic of the island. I shall start another post with my findings later on. I would be interested in your input, as this does seem to be a particularly slippery fish.

[zan]

Lena said

I am NOT saying that we are perfect but don’t tell me that we don’t respect you.

Lena
You are confusing so many issues here. The point is that the RoC as it stands is catering for only the Greek culture and doing very little for us. I have not said that you guys are out to get us with intent in my post? What can happen though is that if our culture and our existence are sidelined for whatever reason then the natural way for things to go will be a constant fight for us. Although having said that that there are people in the south that would be more than happy to have us become Muslim Cypriots rather than who we really are, that is not the point I was trying to make. You are right in saying that we chose to have many Turks living with us in the north but that was a choice, as stated above between losing our Turkishness or becoming more Turkish. In that case I chose to become more Turkish. I do not feel any shame in being Turkish, as some would suggest I should. The comment you made about the translation of documents is more loaded than I think you imagined. The British government translates many documents for many minorities in the UK but they have no real claim to the island as TCs do. Can you not see the difference? Your comment puts us in minority status at a stroke with no rights to any claim to the island ever belonging, in part to us. The issue of TCs on the island is different to almost any other place in the world when it comes to claiming joint ownership and I am sorry but you do not have sovereignty over the island.

First, a small correction to my post that I just notice.

Now about you Zan can you explain to me what you mean by the emphasise part of your post? What you are? You are not Cypriot? I am sorry if you are not may be I will end this conversation here.

I am not the right person to give you all the laws and the details what the GC government give to TC…but I didn’t say anything more than I saw. Whenever I went for government papers, driving licence, ID, passports, etc there is a TC department, lots of translated documents and stuff member there to help the TC. I don’t know if the UK done the translation and who decided to be done but is what I saw. Can you explain me why I have in my first ID and my first passport Turkish? Is because then UK told us to do? Come on Zan things are not so bad as you want to present them. Yes I agree there are thousands to be done but at least you are in that way.

What did you do for the GC? NOTHING
Do you want us? NO
Do you want to live to a united Cyprus? NO
Do you want partition? YES

You told me that I don’t see any of the facts. Well tell me how much is the GC population in the island? How much is the population of the TC in the island? What the laws say about a government? That governments have to represent their citizens? I asked you again. Do you want us to stop getting married and having children until you become equal? The fact is that you are a minority in the whole Cyprus and in the north among the rest of the Turks. When you were not a minority in Cyprus? The laws and the government have to be fair representing the percentages of their citizens. It bother you so much that the percentage of TC comparing with GC is lower than the ½ but doesn’t bother you because is lower than the ½ of the Turks living north.

If it was possible to eliminate us you were going to do it Zan?

Lena

I will not answer to all your post here because I think we are doubling up on the same thing in two posts. I will just answer the highlighted part. There are organisations in Greece that are not allowed to put the word Turkish up on their representations but have to use the term "Muslim Greeks".

I am worried about you though because you are starting to sound like Pyro. He did not understand me either

[shahmaran]

Maybe they are related!

[zan]

[free_cyprus]

when i speak about my cyprus everyone wants me out of the forum........................... and yet everyone is saying the same thing regarding cyprus more or less apart from the extremist................ that will do and say anything to have a greek and turkish identity............................i proclaimed many things in this forum regarding eoka tmt the leaders of cyprus turkish or greek speaking............. and i have been redeculed scorned and told i dont know what im talking about by people who tell me they can trace their ancestery to athens and ankara ................................what i have to say here is simple every idea in history was rejected christianity and islam itself was first rejected and many many inventions were first rejected ....................i can handle rejection but i cannot handle people who talks rubbish