Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

Although I do not agree with all of it I believe turkish_cypriot has made some very important points in his post below which has to be read carefully. It is definitiely mandatory for GCs to get rid of TPap for a lasting settlement to the Cyprus Problem.

Come on now Piratis. TCs were unhappy with the situation at the time too. There were loads of instances of people burning blankets trying to get the attention of the police outside their new homes that they did NOT WANT, the whole thing was a nightmare for everyone!

TCs have suffered just as much as the GCs, I wish you would accept that! You have prospered while TCs have been stuck in a time warp without nowhere but Turkey to turn to whilst you constantly blame and punish them for trying to survive when you've never given them no other option. As people have said before "let them rot".

There is NO WAY that the TCs would/could of had the chance to even consider unification under Denktashs rule. It was impossible, unthinkable and at worst suicidal. Since we got rid of him now we're facing an equal nightmare with your own facist "president".

Tpops is blatantly a Turk hater and when the GCs actually advise the TCs in joining them in the RoC it makes me sad that they could even suggest such a thing knowing full well what this man and our history is like. Can you imagine TCs asking you to go live with them with Denktash as president?

TCs aren't stupid. We got rid of Denktash, if you were to get rid of Tpop and someone trustworthy were to be your president then I think you would eventually start getting some of the TCs backing the RoC all be it slowly (I say that because I don't think TCs will be enticed to do something so risky unless theres trust which would take a long time to build and Tpop just doesn't have the slightest chance in gaining this from the TCs now). For the time being the fact remains this man had something to do with EOKA and Aktiras, that could be the end of argument right there for TCs, yet he also calls people sympathetic to TCs "Turk lovers", he preaches Hellenism above all else and has even had the audacity to claim that not one TC was killed by the GCs. That alone is enough not to trust him or those who support him. If you can't understand that then there is something seriously wrong with you.

Denktas was not easy to get rid of, I remember a lot of people wishing he would just die, he survived many heart attacks much to the dismay of alot of the TCs (I feel bad writing that but it is the truth and I heard many people say things along those lines, people were sick to death of Denktash), this is the same Denktash who had to import mainlanders in order to stay in power ( ), It got to the point where TCs had to print a letter to him on the front page of Kibris newspaper pleading with him to resign...not to mention the massive protests. The TCs have always wanted a better peaceful future but this has been denied to them (without choice) by people with extremist views like Denktas and made 1000X worse by people in RoC government hell bent on "letting them rot" trying to get back at Turkey in the expense of your "compatriots" in the North while pouring fuel up Denktas' already flaming ass. I seriously doubt there is ANY trust left in the RoC government after all this, there is NO WAY that I would personally ever choose to go live in the RoC.

I want there to be peace in Cyprus, and also want GCs to get their properties and 100% humans rights in the whole of Cyprus, however till the RoC government grasps, appreciates and understands the concerns of the TCs then we will be more than happy with the no solution because I nor they believe that the RoC is sparing a serious thought for our (very serious) concerns.

I think the properties issue is being used as a disguise for the fact that Tpop and the rest of the RoC government just want to control the whole island and I believe that the TCs are justified in not wanting that given problems in the past. I'm sure you guys don't see it this way as you are GCs but I suppose you're not suprised I say that because I am a TC. I understand that you say "that was the past" but a part of me judging by RoC governments actions and their views just doesn't believe it. They definately are not worried at all about TCs, it's all about land, control and nothing else, anyone trying to tell me any different I consider trying to take me for a fool because I am not stupid enough to believe Tpop or anyone up there is thinking about the well being of TCs. I am just being honest. I have no problems what so ever with GCs but I do not feel like I can trust their government at all. If they were sincere I think they would of been pleading with the TCs, (begging if needs be) and doing all they could to get them into the Republic instead of playing games and delay tactics with Turkey which prove to me that TCs are not in the slightest interests of the RoC.

GCs rejected the Annan plan and I'm not blaming them for that not one bit (and never have done) because that would of been our future including yours and you are not at all obliged to sign something if you do not agree with it, simple. I can't argue with that nor would I dare to because if theres a plan that the TCs do not like then I would want them to have the option of rejecting it without being told off like you should of done something against your free will and at the expense of your rights.

I hope in the future something more suitable is put forward so everyone is happy but for the time being the current situation is fine. Once RoC government truly realise our concerns then we should start negotiating asap. The RoC bears the majority so therefore if they want TCs to go out of our way it is going to have to be the RoC who busts her ass to get the TCs in joining them. There is no way 18% TCs under the control of Turkey will be willing or ever have the power/ability or the sheer bravery it would take to do what RoC naively expects them to do while risking everything altogether (most importantly Turkeys support), can you not see how big a risk this is and given the current situation a complete and utter NO NO NO NO NO NO for the TCs? It's just out of the question, unimaginable & unthinkable hence where VP, Zan and Murataga & COs views most probably stem from!! The current situation is much better than being left in the hands of some dodgy character who has a history in the Cyprob, who is the GC equivalent of Denktas yet much worse for TCs since he's not only GC but also had involvement in a number of factors we are divided and not to mention the "defender of Hellenism" and hater of Turks. I personally don't believe someone with his views can differentiate between Turk & Turkish Cypriot.

I totally understand GC concerns but the fact I am TC to one side since they are the major I do feel they have much less to fear in unification of Cyprus then TCs. Since they're the only "sovereign" government they should be acting more responsibly towards their TC community despite whats going on with Turkey. Talk is cheap and the RoC government is all that and nothing more, talk in the hope someone might believe. Furthermore I don't even believe it has anything to do with gaining the trust of the TCs (at all) or trying to make them believe but rather has EVERYTHING to do with international opinions on Cyprus , like I said the other day GC government is smart with her propaganda unlike us who just tell our story with as much spin thinking it'll get us somewhere . Actions speak louder than words and if the RoC wants TCs co-operation and trust then they certainly are going about in the wrong way. I'm not saying give TCs North of the island, but if they were seriously worried about these people they would be doing a hell of a lot more trying to get them on their side. Instead all they're worried about is negotiating with Turkey. WHY? Because of LAND and nothing what so ever to do with our people. Any TC who cannot see this is completely barmy.

Still, saying that I have a lot of respect for people on here (even though I get a little annoyed at times ) including the ones who oppose my ideas or thinking and I definately appreciate you have also had a lot of problems and scars from everything which is why I have tried my best to direct this at the government and not the people cos I can also understand your frustration with Turkey and the unfairness you have also been trated with, I truly feel for you guys. If I was a GC I would definately be doing the same, if I was someone in the RoC government however, I would be doing a lot more to show TCs how much they need to belong to the Republic and not anywhere else. Right now they are doing completely the opposite and in my opinion will sooner or later seal partition yet once again it will be TCs that are laid the complete and utter blame.

[Get Real!]

There was very little unfair or undemocratic about the Cypriot consitution as far as I can make out. Please put me right on this.

The 1960 Constitution was imposed by foreign powers and completely unacceptable to the GC community because the TC minority of 18% (with a contribution to public expenditure of just 7.6%) was given 30% of the House of Representatives and all governmental, administrative and state posts, 40% of the security forces, and a vice-president with veto power.

There was nothing Democratic about it and destined to fail.

On a different note, Piratis is VERY knowledgeable on the Cyprob and I have yet to see him make a technical error so I'd be less condescending towards him if I were you.

[kalahari]

Piratis may be very knowledgeable on the Cyprus problem. But knowledge does not preclude foolishness – I was not being condescending to the man, but insulting. He behaved like an idiot, so I meant to imply he was an idiot. I apologise if this came over as condescending, I meant to be more direct than that. He is a fool because, despite his encyclopaedic knowledge of the problem, he still cannot see beyond the end of his nose. So he has never made a technical error. This makes him a statistician, not a wise man. He compared his situation with that of Europe under the Nazis. I'd call that a technical error.

As for the undemocratic nature of the constitution – you should try living in a country where 70% of the voting population votes for one party, only to see the opposition enter the house with an overwhelming majority. Welcome to modern England.

Modern democracy is always flawed, because it relies upon the power being handed to he masses for one day in every four or five years, and then removed from them. The democracy that Cyprus had mighht have been flawed, but compared to what they had before, and what Makarios was going to give it away for, it was Utopian.

Anyway, if Piratis could write something half as heart felt and honest as turkish cypriot wrote earlier on, without declaring war on people, then he might engender a little more respect.

[free_cyprus]

it was a load of bollox that s what it was the 1960 agreement everyone got somethign except the cypriots we got fuck all......................... get real how the fuck is it supposed to work when the whole fecking goverment of cyprus turkish speaking and greek speakign were traitors

[kalahari]

Free cyprus has eloquently put his finger right on the problem.

The point is this: while it might have been a load of old cobblers, the agreement set the stage for Cyprus to grow up and become an independent nation – in much the same way that any country is let go by the imperialists that hold sway over it, this is bound to be a tough time. But you do NOT respond to liberty by immediately throwing it away – see Archbish M.

[Get Real!]

Anyway, if Piratis could write something half as heart felt and honest as turkish cypriot wrote earlier on, without declaring war on people, then he might engender a little more respect.

This is a political area of the forum not the Red Cross so if and when you complete your Cyprus Problem 101, 201, 301, etc we'll take a closer look at how much respect YOU have acquired. So far your Makarios drips and drabs are nothing short of drips and drabs of misinformation so keep trying and I might catch you later because at the moment you wouldn’t last two rounds.

[Piratis]

Where do you live, Piratis? I cannot believe you live in Cyprus – not the Cyprus I have been to, anyway. You talk as if war is the only answer left to you.

War is not my choice, is what we have since the day Turkey invaded and violated the sovereignty of Republic of Cyprus. What we have now is a cease fire.

The problem was that Makarios genuinely believed he, as a leader of an independent state, could push Henry Kissinger around. He was an idiot. He also wanted to cede "your human rights, democracy and the sovereignty of your country" over to a Greek Military junta.

You don't know what you are talking about. Makarios, just like the great majority of GCs, might have wanted union with Greece deep inside ( something which has been our right and denied to us) but he had accepted the 1960 compromise and at no point he wanted Cyprus to join Greece while Greece was under the junta, quite the contrary

Well, long live the mad democracy of Piratis. Long live the lunatic human rights of a man who is prepared to plunge a bouyant, successful, thriving civilised country back into the jaws of war, just so that he can stand in the same back yard he stood in as a boy.

First of all I said we should fight for our rights. I didn't say that the cease fire of the war with Turkey should end now. There are many ways to fight for your rights, war is just one of them and it is not an option for us today, although we maintain all rights to liberate our country by all means possible.

As bad as the Turkish army of occupation is, as disgraceful as it is, as abhorrent as it is, it is no Nazi Third Reich.

It is for us.

That you compare your comfortable, complacent and healthy lot with that of the jewish holocaust brings shame upon you and all those who you claim to represent.

Be ashamed, you shallow man.

And the UK, France, Russia etc fought Germany to save the Jews? Don't be ridiculous my friend. Those countries fought the Nazis to protect their sovereignty and their interests. So who are you to deny the same right from us? Why didn't you just let the Germans take over your country? Why was it necessary to make a war to liberate all those countries from the Nazi occupation? They could just all of them collaborate with the Nazis like the Romanians and some others did, and have "peace" instead of war. Right?

Actually WWII is just one example. What do you have to say about USA and UK, who fought and fight wars for money and power (Falklands, Vietnam, Iraq etc etc) You go around the world killing people for oil and then you come here to lecture me that I don't even have the right to fight to defend my homeland and my rights?

If there is one that should be ashamed this is you. We only ask for our rights and you have no right to deny even a half of it from us.

[kalahari]

Piratis (and your fan club)

Technically, I am guessing that you do have a cease-fire. Yes. I would prefer to see it as a massive injustice that the world is doing bugger all about. It can hardly be called a peace, and yet it can hardly be called a war. It's not even a stalemate. It's a case of "we've got the second biggest army in NATO and you've got squit. What are you gonna do about it?" It's shameful that nobody does anything about it (by which I mean the rest of the international community).

I have spoken with a man who claims to have been a close personal friend of Nico Sampson in his latter years. I have seen the photographs of him and Sampson together so I have no reason to doubt him. Sampson told him that Makarios engineered the coup to discredit the greek junta, knowing that they were about to fall. He was aware that his palace would be taken, and had ample time to flee to Malta. Sampson, a relatively simple partisan fighter, was made the fall guy and lost all face that he might ever have had after his displacement.

Makarios was expecting the Junta to fall, then he would be in a position to return effect the destiny for Cyprus that he envisioned with the Greek government he preferred.

When the British offered to intervene on the 19th July 1974, he lobbied that they should not. He did not want the country over-run by another invasionary force, even if it was in the supposed role of peace-keepers.

Unfortunately, the very next day, he got just that – in the shape of the Turks.

I accuse Makarios of being hopelessly out of his depth in the midst of all these power politics, and not realising it. In the hands of a more skillful man, with a cleaner agenda (vis, the unequivocal independence of Cyprus) the outcome might have been quite different.

I take away nothing from the British government's indifference against the Turks, but after all, they had already been warned off by Makarios and had their own interests at the time with the change in US foreign policy and their own hung parliament.

As for the behaviour of the Turks, again: unforgiveable.

If you did not mean "take up arms" then I apologise for my insult. I agree with you, there are many ways to win the fight for liberation of Cyprus. But to take up arms would be ineffably stupid.

I still think you are quite wrong to compare your situation with the Third Reich, and I think the comparison is quite distasteful.

I do not think that the UK, France etc fought to save the Jews. Nobody knew about the holocaust, not even the German people, until the camps were discovered. The fact remains though that, while your countrymen in the north have had to put up with mass Turkish settlement, Turkish troops barracked on them (which I understand their taxes pay for?) and global trade disenfranchisement because of their "liberators", the Cypriots in the south have had a pretty easy time of it by comparison.

I have no problems with your fighting for the freedom of your homeland and your rights. I will gladly join with you in that fight, if I agree with your tactics. However, I am questioning your motives and your focus – which seem, by the content of your posts, to be clearly centred on rectifying the wrongs brought upon you in the past.

Incidentally, I do not go round the world killing people for oil. I pop down the garage for mine and pay like you do.

The British government do – yes. However, you should not, once again, make the mistake of equating me (or anybody I know, come to that) with the British government. They are shits.

I would be interested in your thoughts on the statements above regarding Makarios and Sampson. I am willing to be persuaded away from them, but I should warn you, I remain singularly unimpressed with Makarios' abilities as a statesman.

Once again, please accept my apologies for my insulting tone. I will in future accord you with more respect. But please do try to keep a perspective regarding your present lot – it can't be that bad, or you wouldn't have all this time to spend chatting as freely as you like on your nice shiny computer.

[karma]

offfffffffffffffffffffffff
I m tired of ur comments..
Pakistan and Puerto Rico may unite....Cypros will never do...
we all know that
why u all pretend??
I m tired of this forum

[LENA]

Lena mou I am sorry for my bad language, though I am not making any apologies of people who care nothing about the Cypriot fate.

Secondly, I think a great number of refugees will return to their properties if they were allowed and protected under the UN, well at least in theory. We have seen that the UN has been unable to protect the right of the "enclaved Greek speaking Cypriots" of Rizokarpaso, whose land was taken from them by the Turkish Cypriot regime and was divid up to others. More greek speaking cypriots will aslo move north to their properties if there was a suport for unification from the regime in the north. Which sadly to say there isn't.

Andrea I thought you had more reasonable way to discuss any of your arguments and disagreements. I was disappointed by you when I saw your posts in this threat. I am not offended because you didn’t insult me but you let me down because I thought you respects others opinion either they agree or not. You can disagree with them but not insult them. Anyway, reading through your last posts I can see lot of pain in your heart. I know that you know what Humanism, love, peace etc mean. And if Kalahari doesn’t believe that he can read older post of yours. This time you were out of order. I can understand because some times feelings make us do things or say things without realize what we are doing.

If you want to win you have to play dirty.... shouldn't it be?

No as I said above, playing clear is the best way. If you win with dirty way it will not have the same pleasure if it was with a right way. And you can win more easily if you stay calm. That make your brain work better and more clear and upset your opponents so…its more easy for you to win with a right way.


I read lots of great things from Kalahari, T_C and Piratis. All 3 of them said some true things as well. All of them have a right thing to say but in some points they are mislead or emotions come against their willing to stay in the middle. Kalahari said really good stuff and I was surprised he knew that much, he is bother to discuss that even if its not his country and he can judge what might be right and what wrong by hearing both sides.

Absolute cracker of a post turkish_cypriot. Although things have begun to get a little out of hand on the talking front with some on this board, that is exactly what we have all been saying from day one. The simple truth of the matter. I have tried to tell Lena that the most important thing that we as TCs have is just that, that we are TCs. We have to exist as TCs for at least the foreseeable future until this Cypriot nationality can form and we can be comfortable with it. The so-called Cypriotness that the RoC is trying to entice us into is a Greek based one that will mean the loss of our identity. I really don't think that thee are many GCs here that appreciate what that really means.

You are wrong Zan, the only thing that you have is not just the title…is what is in the name of a TC. I can tell you the same thing. That I have just that, that I am GC. What that mean? Come on Zan. You have more than you want to present. Is our fault that you are a minority even in the north? With all the Turks around you? Turks are not the minority in a TC community but TC are. So we are the bad people that we want to change you, right? TC used to speak Greek and Turkish as well…how many TC they know Greek now? We, the GC, influenced them, right? We are trying to make them forget about the fact that they are TC…right?

The RoC, translated all the documents for you, they didn’t force you to learn Greek to be able to apply for ID, passport or anything you want. They even hired stuff that knows Turkish to help you. Whenever you go …to a government office there is a Turkish office for the TC. But we force you to change what you are…right? They offer for free to us Turkish lessons just to make sure that we will be able to communicate with the TC if we want to. But we want to change you…to turn you to something we want. OK! Whatever you say my dear.

I am saying that we are perfect but don’t tell me that we don’t respect you.