Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

Lena mou I am sorry for my bad language, though I am not making any apologies of people who care nothing about the Cypriot fate.

Secondly, I think a great number of refugees will return to their properties if they were allowed and protected under the UN, well at least in theory. We have seen that the UN has been unable to protect the right of the "enclaved Greek speaking Cypriots" of Rizokarpaso, whose land was taken from them by the Turkish Cypriot regime and was divid up to others. More greek speaking cypriots will aslo move north to their properties if there was a suport for unification from the regime in the north. Which sadly to say there isn't.

[humanist]

If you want to win you have to play dirty.... shouldn't it be?

[sweetie pie]

Kalahari I have no time for people who claim that
there are no refugees in Cyprus
I have not time for the Blair family taking a cypriot refugee to court and supporting someone who is exploiting refugee property instead of supporting the refugee and at the same time helping kurb the exploitation of refugee property and I also have very little time for people like you who have no idea about the suffering and experience of all cypriots, and yet you have the spine to call me xenophobe. all you see is a place in the sun and then you want to turn it into a miniature Britain. Did my word offend the poor passive agressive Brits? well truth hurts. There is nothing more that the British would like but to see a partitioned Cyprus both your ignorance and your governments direction on this issue indicates anything else than that. I know what a definition of a humanist is so you need not post it for me. I also know what it feels like to loose a loved to the hands of the turkish army, I also know what it means to be prevented from having access of half of my country, I also know what it means to leave ones country because another with greater power has invaded, so don't preach to me about humanism. What have you as an individual done to assist a poor isolated faturkish speaking family in the north, what have you done to support a refugee family in the south (yea a greek speaking refugee family they do exists, as much as you and the like s of biker may like to thinsk) there are people in 2007 whose land and livelyhood has been stolen from them, what have you done other than perhaps exploit them also by buying their land from some unethical turk who decides its okay to oust people from their country take their land and sell it off to low life scum British who can't afford to live in the south so they go and stupidly buy stollen property so they can say that have a villa overseas.

The fact that the Blair woman yet another unethical lawyer in the misdts of many supports the sale of refugee land. A good honest ethical lawyer would have suggested to her client that they go after the thieves who sold them the stolen land in the first place.

Your short sightedness and selfish interests have caused horror and pain in Israel/ Palestine and you are now wanting to immulate that with Cyprus. If we have not learnt from palestine that so long as people feel ill treated and victimised they will lash out witht the means they know best. In palestine that is what they know. If there is partition in Cyprus the results will be the same, I do not wish it upon anyone as I do not believe that more innocent lives need to go. The demolition of Ledra street wall brought fascists from both sides out of the wood works, and that was a demolition of a dividing barrier what do you think will happen if there was a partition. The supporters of "Hrisi Avyi" (an oxymoron in itself) will go on a rampage. Unlike the small British minds fuelled by self interets and nothing else for neither the greek/ turksih speaking Cypriots does not allow you or your leadership to see what past actions have caused and how to prevent them.

If biker thinks they are clever because they manage to slip into Cyprus well it is really sad that there are ignorant pathetic people who claim there are no refugees in Cyprus, living on that beautifu, gorgeous Island that Britain along with her partner the US have systematically over the past century tried to hand over half the Island to Turkey once again not for the benefit of Turks but to meet the American and British agenda.

I take great exception to this post.

For your information a FEW Brits have bought property in the North alongside Russians, Germans etc. So where is the hostility for the others or is it the Brits AGAIN becoming the whipping boys.

What our Govt does or does not do has no reflection on the thoughts and ideas of most people from Britain.

Ok kick out the bases and the employment they bring.

Kick out all the Brits - Oh sorry, can't do that as over 60% of your tourist industry relies on Brits on holiday. Its reducing so you should be happy when it all stops and you are left with the remaining 30%. If they meet people with your attitude towards them it should happen even quicker.

Kick out the resident Brits - Oh sorry, can't do that as they are contributing to the economy and spending pensions earned in the UK and capital money from their properties in the UK to buy property/cars over here further contributing to the economy.

The term refugee is not recognised internationally in relation to the Cypriots who moved to the South. The term is displaced citizens. That you chose to call yourself a refugee is up to you.

Most Cypriots who I have spoken to, and they appear to be well balanced individuals, are doing very well and don't really wish to move back to the North after so long. They say it is maudlin sentimentality in most cases. Their words not mine! So even the Cypriots in the south don't all agree do they?

[kalahari]

Well hello there humanist.

Firstly, let me say that I agree with your statement at the bottom of your posts, vis:

"Love, Peace & Respect is the answer"

I doubt very much whether you even know what this means. If you have the temerity to tell me that you do know what love, peace and respect mean (I suppose in the same way that you have a definition in your mind of the word "humanist" then you will owe me an apology, as you have shown me no respect at all, very little love and adopted such an aggressive stance that I find it difficult that you are seeking much peace, other than the peace that is won by the aggressive antagonist who drives all before him.

Now, you have accused me of many things which I feel I have a duty to respond to, not least because you are undoubtedly including all the other British people whom you wish Love, Peace and Respect onto as well as myself.

Kalahari I have no time for people who claim that
there are no refugees in Cyprus

I have never claimed such a thing. Of course there are refugees in Cyprus, many refugees from many different nations. Or were you concentrating the issue on yourself? Ther are refugees from the north in the south, and vice versa. I know this, I have met many and some I am happy to call friends. However, the thirty years that have passed since they became refugees has led them to become a little more mellow about their refugee status. They are still whistful for the Cyprus that once was, as I am whistful for the England of my childhood. I know of nobody who would be stupid enough to claim, against all the evidence otherwise, that there are no refugees in Cyprus, but I, like you, would have little time for anybody that insisted this was true.

I have not time for the Blair family taking a cypriot refugee to court and supporting someone who is exploiting refugee property instead of supporting the refugee and at the same time helping kurb the exploitation of refugee property

I bet I have even less time for the Blair family than you do. I have had to live under their "government" for the past ten years. The Blairs are stupid, self-interested and dangerous people.

I also have very little time for people like you who have no idea about the suffering and experience of all cypriots, and yet you have the spine to call me xenophobe

I did not live through the troubles, so my experiences can never be yours. But to say I have no idea is rather disrespectful – as I have taken the trouble to immerse myself in the experiences and history of the Cypriot people and feel that I have a fairly balanced perspective on these issues. And of course I have the spine to call you a xenophobe. You appear to display all the attributes of a xenophobe and a misanthrope. I have yet to see a post of yours that would persuade me otherwise. If you care to alter my opinion then treat me with a little more respect, love and peace. Oh, and incidentally, I would rather you didn't intimate that I am "unethical". While I may be "British" and am fortunate to enjoy a "fuck" from time to time (though this is not the language I would rather use in public forums) "unethical" I am not. Read my posts if you are in doubt.

all you see is a place in the sun and then you want to turn it into a miniature Britain.

Nope, not me. I am moving to Cyprus because of my health, because I consider it to be one of the more civilised places on the planet, and because I like it there. Why would I want to change a beautiful place like Cyprus into Britain? Have you been to Britain? Why do you think I am keen to be leaving?

Did my word offend the poor passive agressive Brits?

Most of what you say is intended to be offensive, isn't it? Passive agressive is a contradiction in terms.

well truth hurts.

No it doesn't. Having to put up with tirades of abuse hurts. The truth is actually quite palatable if you stick with trying to find it the whole time. It only really hurts if you stick your head in the sand and refuse to listen to anybody who doesn't agree completely with yourself.

There is nothing more that the British would like but to see a partitioned Cyprus both your ignorance and your governments direction on this issue indicates anything else than that.

You might well be right on this, I do not know. I think however it is a mistake to confuse the will of a government with the will of a people. History will show you that they are rarely, if ever, the same thing. For the record, "my" government has unfortunately never asked for my opinion on the Cyprus issue, and probably never will.

I know what a definition of a humanist is so you need not post it for me. I also know what it feels like to loose a loved to the hands of the turkish army, I also know what it means to be prevented from having access of half of my country, I also know what it means to leave ones country because another with greater power has invaded, so don't preach to me about humanism.

You see, I am not sure you do know what a humanist is, if you are using these experiences to define yourself as one. Anyway, I'm just being pedantic here. May I suggest that you try adopting a more humanistic approach to your posts? Perhaps Love, Peace and Respect would be a good place to start?

What have you as an individual done to assist a poor isolated faturkish speaking family in the north, what have you done to support a refugee family in the south (yea a greek speaking refugee family they do exists, as much as you and the like s of biker may like to thinsk) there are people in 2007 whose land and livelyhood has been stolen from them, what have you done other than perhaps exploit them also by buying their land from some unethical turk who decides its okay to oust people from their country take their land and sell it off to low life scum British who can't afford to live in the south so they go and stupidly buy stollen property so they can say that have a villa overseas.

I have two prominent Greek Cypriot friends who are both refugees from the north. They are intelligent, articulate men whom I hold in great respect. I have never once been north of the border – I will not go on principle. The Turks are an illegal presence there and I do not wish to give their presence any hint of approval from myself. Their presence is an abomination and makes a laughing stock of the EC's high minded liberal ideals. I will go further, and say that I will not knowingly talk to any Brit who has purchased property in the north.

The fact that the Blair woman yet another unethical lawyer in the misdts of many supports the sale of refugee land. A good honest ethical lawyer would have suggested to her client that they go after the thieves who sold them the stolen land in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. The Blair woman showed such an impressive lack of judgement that her husband should have resigned over this. The fact that he didn't even apologise demonstrates how unfit for office he is.

Your short sightedness and selfish interests have caused horror and pain in Israel/ Palestine and you are now wanting to immulate that with Cyprus. If we have not learnt from palestine that so long as people feel ill treated and victimised they will lash out witht the means they know best. In palestine that is what they know. If there is partition in Cyprus the results will be the same, I do not wish it upon anyone as I do not believe that more innocent lives need to go. The demolition of Ledra street wall brought fascists from both sides out of the wood works, and that was a demolition of a dividing barrier what do you think will happen if there was a partition. The supporters of "Hrisi Avyi" (an oxymoron in itself) will go on a rampage. Unlike the small British minds fuelled by self interets and nothing else for neither the greek/ turksih speaking Cypriots does not allow you or your leadership to see what past actions have caused and how to prevent them.

This, I take it, is aimed at the British government and not myself? While I am flattered that you consider I might carry such influence, may I assure you that I have very little influence on anything at all in this country, being white, English, male, able-bodied and a relatively successful businessman. This makes me the scum of the earth in the United Kingdom. You need to be aware of this – a truth that does indeed hurt.

If biker thinks they are clever because they manage to slip into Cyprus well it is really sad that there are ignorant pathetic people who claim there are no refugees in Cyprus, living on that beautifu, gorgeous Island that Britain along with her partner the US have systematically over the past century tried to hand over half the Island to Turkey once again not for the benefit of Turks but to meet the American and British agenda.

I'm not sure what Biker thinks, but he does strike me as being rather angry sometimes, as so many people on this forum seem to be. Which is rather sad. As for Britain and the US handing the island over to Turkey – no, they don't want that. The US wanted a base on Cyprus, yes. The Brits want to maintain their base on Cyprus, yes. Neither power wants Turkey to have the island, I can promise you that. They might harbour secret wishes that Cyprus belonged in its entirety to themselves, possibly, but not to Ankara. Cyprus is of too significant strategic value. The only person who got close to handing Cyprus over to anybody was the unbelievably over-rated Makarios – who is the true villain of the whole Cyprus Problem.

Incidentally, why is Hrisi Avyi an oxymoron? I thought it meant "Golden Dawn"? Am I wrong?

Anyway, thing is, humanist my friend, if you wish to indulge in further dialogue about your beautiful country's future and how we might bring to bear any influence that you and I might share between us, then I would be happy to. But can we please start with a little more Respect, Love and Peace?

Best, Kal

[Piratis]

Kalahari, I wouldn't mind to be "refugee" either if I could exchange my property in Limassol with twice as much in lets say Larnaca. I hope you understand the difference between the 18% of TCs going to the occupied 36% northern part of Cyprus to achieve their dream of partition and taking twice the land than what they left behind, and the real refugees, the GCs, who had to flea their properties at gun point and in return they were given some temporary crapy housing to stay in and they had to start from zero.

[kalahari]

Piratis

I understand completely – I do not seek to justify the actions of the Turkish army in any way, shape or form. I find it abhorrent and shameful that they continue to illegally occupy a territory in Europe without any of the other European countries doing a thing to remedy this illegal action.

I understand that the Greek Cypriots from the north were forced out at gunpoint. The lot of a refugee is never justifiable, whether they are fleeing from Nazis, Turks, starvation or genocide. Millions of people around the planet are, even today, having to deal with the ramifications of being refugees right now, let alone the thirty-years on aftermath.

Whether I understand the difference between one sort of injustice or another sort does not lessen the injustice committed to any individual, and I think it would be rather trite of anybody to try to claim that the injustice that they experienced thirty years ago is worth griping about more just because it happened to them. We are each dealt a hand in this life, it is up to us to play it as best we can, not just moan about how the deal was rigged against us personally. It's easy to wriggle away from any argument just by saying "Well, how could you possibly know." Easy and lonely.

I find it's best not to dwell in the past for too long – as it gets harder and harder to see the possibilities of the present.

[sweetie pie]

Well hello there humanist.

Firstly, let me say that I agree with your statement at the bottom of your posts, vis:

"Love, Peace & Respect is the answer"

I doubt very much whether you even know what this means. If you have the temerity to tell me that you do know what love, peace and respect mean (I suppose in the same way that you have a definition in your mind of the word "humanist" then you will owe me an apology, as you have shown me no respect at all, very little love and adopted such an aggressive stance that I find it difficult that you are seeking much peace, other than the peace that is won by the aggressive antagonist who drives all before him.

Now, you have accused me of many things which I feel I have a duty to respond to, not least because you are undoubtedly including all the other British people whom you wish Love, Peace and Respect onto as well as myself.

Kalahari I have no time for people who claim that
there are no refugees in Cyprus

I have never claimed such a thing. Of course there are refugees in Cyprus, many refugees from many different nations. Or were you concentrating the issue on yourself? Ther are refugees from the north in the south, and vice versa. I know this, I have met many and some I am happy to call friends. However, the thirty years that have passed since they became refugees has led them to become a little more mellow about their refugee status. They are still whistful for the Cyprus that once was, as I am whistful for the England of my childhood. I know of nobody who would be stupid enough to claim, against all the evidence otherwise, that there are no refugees in Cyprus, but I, like you, would have little time for anybody that insisted this was true.

I have not time for the Blair family taking a cypriot refugee to court and supporting someone who is exploiting refugee property instead of supporting the refugee and at the same time helping kurb the exploitation of refugee property

I bet I have even less time for the Blair family than you do. I have had to live under their "government" for the past ten years. The Blairs are stupid, self-interested and dangerous people.

I also have very little time for people like you who have no idea about the suffering and experience of all cypriots, and yet you have the spine to call me xenophobe

I did not live through the troubles, so my experiences can never be yours. But to say I have no idea is rather disrespectful – as I have taken the trouble to immerse myself in the experiences and history of the Cypriot people and feel that I have a fairly balanced perspective on these issues. And of course I have the spine to call you a xenophobe. You appear to display all the attributes of a xenophobe and a misanthrope. I have yet to see a post of yours that would persuade me otherwise. If you care to alter my opinion then treat me with a little more respect, love and peace. Oh, and incidentally, I would rather you didn't intimate that I am "unethical". While I may be "British" and am fortunate to enjoy a "fuck" from time to time (though this is not the language I would rather use in public forums) "unethical" I am not. Read my posts if you are in doubt.

all you see is a place in the sun and then you want to turn it into a miniature Britain.

Nope, not me. I am moving to Cyprus because of my health, because I consider it to be one of the more civilised places on the planet, and because I like it there. Why would I want to change a beautiful place like Cyprus into Britain? Have you been to Britain? Why do you think I am keen to be leaving?

Did my word offend the poor passive agressive Brits?

Most of what you say is intended to be offensive, isn't it? Passive agressive is a contradiction in terms.

well truth hurts.

No it doesn't. Having to put up with tirades of abuse hurts. The truth is actually quite palatable if you stick with trying to find it the whole time. It only really hurts if you stick your head in the sand and refuse to listen to anybody who doesn't agree completely with yourself.

There is nothing more that the British would like but to see a partitioned Cyprus both your ignorance and your governments direction on this issue indicates anything else than that.

You might well be right on this, I do not know. I think however it is a mistake to confuse the will of a government with the will of a people. History will show you that they are rarely, if ever, the same thing. For the record, "my" government has unfortunately never asked for my opinion on the Cyprus issue, and probably never will.

I know what a definition of a humanist is so you need not post it for me. I also know what it feels like to loose a loved to the hands of the turkish army, I also know what it means to be prevented from having access of half of my country, I also know what it means to leave ones country because another with greater power has invaded, so don't preach to me about humanism.

You see, I am not sure you do know what a humanist is, if you are using these experiences to define yourself as one. Anyway, I'm just being pedantic here. May I suggest that you try adopting a more humanistic approach to your posts? Perhaps Love, Peace and Respect would be a good place to start?

What have you as an individual done to assist a poor isolated faturkish speaking family in the north, what have you done to support a refugee family in the south (yea a greek speaking refugee family they do exists, as much as you and the like s of biker may like to thinsk) there are people in 2007 whose land and livelyhood has been stolen from them, what have you done other than perhaps exploit them also by buying their land from some unethical turk who decides its okay to oust people from their country take their land and sell it off to low life scum British who can't afford to live in the south so they go and stupidly buy stollen property so they can say that have a villa overseas.

I have two prominent Greek Cypriot friends who are both refugees from the north. They are intelligent, articulate men whom I hold in great respect. I have never once been north of the border – I will not go on principle. The Turks are an illegal presence there and I do not wish to give their presence any hint of approval from myself. Their presence is an abomination and makes a laughing stock of the EC's high minded liberal ideals. I will go further, and say that I will not knowingly talk to any Brit who has purchased property in the north.

The fact that the Blair woman yet another unethical lawyer in the misdts of many supports the sale of refugee land. A good honest ethical lawyer would have suggested to her client that they go after the thieves who sold them the stolen land in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. The Blair woman showed such an impressive lack of judgement that her husband should have resigned over this. The fact that he didn't even apologise demonstrates how unfit for office he is.

Your short sightedness and selfish interests have caused horror and pain in Israel/ Palestine and you are now wanting to immulate that with Cyprus. If we have not learnt from palestine that so long as people feel ill treated and victimised they will lash out witht the means they know best. In palestine that is what they know. If there is partition in Cyprus the results will be the same, I do not wish it upon anyone as I do not believe that more innocent lives need to go. The demolition of Ledra street wall brought fascists from both sides out of the wood works, and that was a demolition of a dividing barrier what do you think will happen if there was a partition. The supporters of "Hrisi Avyi" (an oxymoron in itself) will go on a rampage. Unlike the small British minds fuelled by self interets and nothing else for neither the greek/ turksih speaking Cypriots does not allow you or your leadership to see what past actions have caused and how to prevent them.

This, I take it, is aimed at the British government and not myself? While I am flattered that you consider I might carry such influence, may I assure you that I have very little influence on anything at all in this country, being white, English, male, able-bodied and a relatively successful businessman. This makes me the scum of the earth in the United Kingdom. You need to be aware of this – a truth that does indeed hurt.

If biker thinks they are clever because they manage to slip into Cyprus well it is really sad that there are ignorant pathetic people who claim there are no refugees in Cyprus, living on that beautifu, gorgeous Island that Britain along with her partner the US have systematically over the past century tried to hand over half the Island to Turkey once again not for the benefit of Turks but to meet the American and British agenda.

I'm not sure what Biker thinks, but he does strike me as being rather angry sometimes, as so many people on this forum seem to be. Which is rather sad. As for Britain and the US handing the island over to Turkey – no, they don't want that. The US wanted a base on Cyprus, yes. The Brits want to maintain their base on Cyprus, yes. Neither power wants Turkey to have the island, I can promise you that. They might harbour secret wishes that Cyprus belonged in its entirety to themselves, possibly, but not to Ankara. Cyprus is of too significant strategic value. The only person who got close to handing Cyprus over to anybody was the unbelievably over-rated Makarios – who is the true villain of the whole Cyprus Problem.

Incidentally, why is Hrisi Avyi an oxymoron? I thought it meant "Golden Dawn"? Am I wrong?

Anyway, thing is, humanist my friend, if you wish to indulge in further dialogue about your beautiful country's future and how we might bring to bear any influence that you and I might share between us, then I would be happy to. But can we please start with a little more Respect, Love and Peace?

Best, Kal

You are much more clear thinking than I. Well said!

[T_C]

Kalahari, I wouldn't mind to be "refugee" either if I could exchange my property in Limassol with twice as much in lets say Larnaca. I hope you understand the difference between the 18% of TCs going to the occupied 36% northern part of Cyprus to achieve their dream of partition and taking twice the land than what they left behind, and the real refugees, the GCs, who had to flea their properties at gun point and in return they were given some temporary crapy housing to stay in and they had to start from zero.

Come on now Piratis. TCs were unhappy with the situation at the time too. There were loads of instances of people burning blankets trying to get the attention of the police outside their new homes that they did NOT WANT, the whole thing was a nightmare for everyone!

TCs have suffered just as much as the GCs, I wish you would accept that! You have prospered while TCs have been stuck in a time warp without nowhere but Turkey to turn to whilst you constantly blame and punish them for trying to survive when you've never given them no other option. As people have said before "let them rot".

There is NO WAY that the TCs would/could of had the chance to even consider unification under Denktashs rule. It was impossible, unthinkable and at worst suicidal. Since we got rid of him now we're facing an equal nightmare with your own facist "president".

Tpops is blatantly a Turk hater and when the GCs actually advise the TCs in joining them in the RoC it makes me sad that they could even suggest such a thing knowing full well what this man and our history is like. Can you imagine TCs asking you to go live with them with Denktash as president?

TCs aren't stupid. We got rid of Denktash, if you were to get rid of Tpop and someone trustworthy were to be your president then I think you would eventually start getting some of the TCs backing the RoC all be it slowly (I say that because I don't think TCs will be enticed to do something so risky unless theres trust which would take a long time to build and Tpop just doesn't have the slightest chance in gaining this from the TCs now). For the time being the fact remains this man had something to do with EOKA and Aktiras, that could be the end of argument right there for TCs, yet he also calls people sympathetic to TCs "Turk lovers", he preaches Hellenism above all else and has even had the audacity to claim that not one TC was killed by the GCs. That alone is enough not to trust him or those who support him. If you can't understand that then there is something seriously wrong with you.

Denktas was not easy to get rid of, I remember a lot of people wishing he would just die, he survived many heart attacks much to the dismay of alot of the TCs (I feel bad writing that but it is the truth and I heard many people say things along those lines, people were sick to death of Denktash), this is the same Denktash who had to import mainlanders in order to stay in power (:!: ), It got to the point where TCs had to print a letter to him on the front page of Kibris newspaper pleading with him to resign...not to mention the massive protests. The TCs have always wanted a better peaceful future but this has been denied to them (without choice) by people with extremist views like Denktas and made 1000X worse by people in RoC government hell bent on "letting them rot" trying to get back at Turkey in the expense of your "compatriots" in the North while pouring fuel up Denktas' already flaming ass. I seriously doubt there is ANY trust left in the RoC government after all this, there is NO WAY that I would personally ever choose to go live in the RoC.

I want there to be peace in Cyprus, and also want GCs to get their properties and 100% humans rights in the whole of Cyprus, however till the RoC government grasps, appreciates and understands the concerns of the TCs then we will be more than happy with the no solution because I nor they believe that the RoC is sparing a serious thought for our (very serious) concerns.

I think the properties issue is being used as a disguise for the fact that Tpop and the rest of the RoC government just want to control the whole island and I believe that the TCs are justified in not wanting that given problems in the past. I'm sure you guys don't see it this way as you are GCs but I suppose you're not suprised I say that because I am a TC. I understand that you say "that was the past" but a part of me judging by RoC governments actions and their views just doesn't believe it. They definately are not worried at all about TCs, it's all about land, control and nothing else, anyone trying to tell me any different I consider trying to take me for a fool because I am not stupid enough to believe Tpop or anyone up there is thinking about the well being of TCs. I am just being honest. I have no problems what so ever with GCs but I do not feel like I can trust their government at all. If they were sincere I think they would of been pleading with the TCs, (begging if needs be) and doing all they could to get them into the Republic instead of playing games and delay tactics with Turkey which prove to me that TCs are not in the slightest interests of the RoC.

GCs rejected the Annan plan and I'm not blaming them for that not one bit (and never have done) because that would of been our future including yours and you are not at all obliged to sign something if you do not agree with it, simple. I can't argue with that nor would I dare to because if theres a plan that the TCs do not like then I would want them to have the option of rejecting it without being told off like you should of done something against your free will and at the expense of your rights.

I hope in the future something more suitable is put forward so everyone is happy but for the time being the current situation is fine. Once RoC government truly realise our concerns then we should start negotiating asap. The RoC bears the majority so therefore if they want TCs to go out of our way it is going to have to be the RoC who busts her ass to get the TCs in joining them. There is no way 18% TCs under the control of Turkey will be willing or ever have the power/ability or the sheer bravery it would take to do what RoC naively expects them to do while risking everything altogether (most importantly Turkeys support), can you not see how big a risk this is and given the current situation a complete and utter NO NO NO NO NO NO for the TCs? It's just out of the question, unimaginable & unthinkable hence where VP, Zan and Murataga & COs views most probably stem from!! The current situation is much better than being left in the hands of some dodgy character who has a history in the Cyprob, who is the GC equivalent of Denktas yet much worse for TCs since he's not only GC but also had involvement in a number of factors we are divided and not to mention the "defender of Hellenism" and hater of Turks. I personally don't believe someone with his views can differentiate between Turk & Turkish Cypriot.

I totally understand GC concerns but the fact I am TC to one side since they are the major I do feel they have much less to fear in unification of Cyprus then TCs. Since they're the only "sovereign" government they should be acting more responsibly towards their TC community despite whats going on with Turkey. Talk is cheap and the RoC government is all that and nothing more, talk in the hope someone might believe. Furthermore I don't even believe it has anything to do with gaining the trust of the TCs (at all) or trying to make them believe but rather has EVERYTHING to do with international opinions on Cyprus , like I said the other day GC government is smart with her propaganda unlike us who just tell our story with as much spin thinking it'll get us somewhere . Actions speak louder than words and if the RoC wants TCs co-operation and trust then they certainly are going about in the wrong way. I'm not saying give TCs North of the island, but if they were seriously worried about these people they would be doing a hell of a lot more trying to get them on their side. Instead all they're worried about is negotiating with Turkey. WHY? Because of LAND and nothing what so ever to do with our people. Any TC who cannot see this is completely barmy.

Still, saying that I have a lot of respect for people on here (even though I get a little annoyed at times ) including the ones who oppose my ideas or thinking and I definately appreciate you have also had a lot of problems and scars from everything which is why I have tried my best to direct this at the government and not the people cos I can also understand your frustration with Turkey and the unfairness you have also been trated with, I truly feel for you guys. If I was a GC I would definately be doing the same, if I was someone in the RoC government however, I would be doing a lot more to show TCs how much they need to belong to the Republic and not anywhere else. Right now they are doing completely the opposite and in my opinion will sooner or later seal partition yet once again it will be TCs that are laid the complete and utter blame.

[kalahari]

Fantastic post, Turkish Cypriot. My hat's off to you, for a number of reasons.

First, it's great to have a well reasoned argument.

Second, it's clearly directed at the governments. Bravo.

Third, any TC who can openly berate Denktash is a friend of mine. Denktash was the Makarios of the north.

You hit upon a number of other great points, but may I sum them up by saying this:

Cyprus needs a new flag, a new anthem and a new president. It needs a new feeling of national identity.

It should be made illegal to fly a Greek flag without a Cypriot flag on the same mast, above it. The anthem should be in Greek and Turkish – a combination of the two languages.

Any schools, roads etc named after Makarios should be renamed.

Pro-hellenism must take second place to pro-Cypriotism – if it has any place at all. It's time Cyprus grew up and accepted that it is an independent nation – and a bloody good one at that!

[zan]

Absolute cracker of a post turkish_cypriot. Although things have begun to get a little out of hand on the talking front with some on this board, that is exactly what we have all been saying from day one. The simple truth of the matter. I have tried to tell Lena that the most important thing that we as TCs have is just that, that we are TCs. We have to exist as TCs for at least the foreseeable future until this Cypriot nationality can form and we can be comfortable with it. The so-called Cypriotness that the RoC is trying to entice us into is a Greek based one that will mean the loss of our identity. I really don't think that thee are many GCs here that appreciate what that really means.