Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

Without further comment:

Father Papatsestos (priest of the Greek Orthodox Cemetery in Nicosia) on Athens daily TA NEA on 28 February 1976
"It is a rather hard thing to say, but it is true that the Turkish intervention saved us from a merciless internecine war."

Die Zeit, 30 August 1974
In the four days that followed the coup, an estimated 2000 people, known to be ardent supporters of Makarios were killed. Their names were later added to those killed during the subsequent Turkish invasion.

[Piratis]

First of all I have to make something very clear:

I believe that we should leave the past behind, we should forgive each other, stop all illegalities and move ahead with a united democratic country without racist discriminations and with respect to the human rights of all Cypriots.

Unfortunately I notice that there some people that insist on using a tiny and selective part of the past as an excuse for the continuation of illegalities and their demand for a "solution" that will be based on racist discrimination of people based on their ethnic background (which is something that exists in no democratic country in the world)

To those people Greek Cypriots deserved the violations of their human rights for the last 32 years and they deserve to be convicted for eternal violation of their human rights in a country that discriminates against them because of their race.

The fact is however that Turks in Cyprus have committed 100 times more crimes against Greek Cypriots than the other way around.

Greek Cypriots have been the majority on the island of Cyprus for 3000+ years. Their interaction with Turks starts in the 15th century, were the Turks attacked our island. This also answers the question "Who started it" for anybody that thinks that this is important:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted. Word of the massacre spread, and a few days later Mustafa took Kyrenia without having to fire a shot. Famagusta, however, resisted and put up a heroic defense that lasted from September 1570 until August 1571.

So now it is clear how the interaction of Turks with Greek Cypriots started in Cyprus, and the question "Who started it" is answered as well.

What followed were 300 years of Ottoman rule in Cyprus. During these 3 centuries Greek Cypriots were oppressed second category citizens. They had to pay multiple times the taxes of muslims and their testimony in courts was not accepted. Whenever they tried to revolt against their oppressors they were slaughtered.

So here we have a period were Turks were oppressing and killing Greeks in Cyprus. The result of this period was 300 years of oppression against GCs and 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots dead.

The next "round" of conflict between the two communities was at the end of the British rule in Cyprus, and then from 63 to 68. During this period extremists from both sides were committing crimes and atrocities.

This is the only period that TCs remember, but even here they remember only their own casualties and not the crimes that they had committed against GCs.

So this is a period were both sides had about an equal number of casualties, some 100s for each side.

Then in 1974 the illegal coupists overthrow our president and Turkey found the excuse to invade Cyprus. No TC was killed by the coupists before the invasion had started, but only after.
The result of the coup/invasion was 6000 GCs dead and 200.000 GCs ethnically cleansed. On the other side the TCs had only a couple of 100s of victims.

The next period is the 32 years of illegal occupation and insistence from Turkey to violate international law and human rights. This continues until today.

Conclusion:
1) The Turks "started it" in the 15th century
2) The Turks have committed much much more crimes against Greek Cypriots.
3) The Turks insist on their crimes today
4) Greek Cypriots have committed crimes as well, but only a tiny fraction of the crimes that the Turks have committed.

Still, Greek Cypriots are more than willing to put all these behind as long as we are not provoked by people that remember only the 1% of history that suits that in order to prove that Greek Cypriots are the evil people that deserve even more crimes against them.

Therefore I ask from people on this forum to either:

1) Leave the past behind. Do not try to excuse crimes and illegalities in 2006 with events that happened in the past. Concentrate on how we can find a solution that will respect all Cypriots equally without racist discriminations and human right violations.

Or, if doing (1) is impossible for you then at least:

2) If you believe that the past should be used to determine who is the "good" and who is the "bad" one and that this should be the basis of solving the Cyprus problem (instead of democracy, human rights and legality, that I propose) then at least use the whole history and not the tiny bits that suit you.

[Murataga]

To his deepest frustration and panic against arguments and evidence presented opposing his version of the Cyprus conflict, this individual has desperately chosen to take a path with a dead end: dig up thousands of years of past to seek some comfort for his ego. To base present claims on first occupation is ludicrous, historistic, romantic and certain to create discord. There have been large movements in the world, some by emigration, others by conquest, and they have to be accepted as facts of the contemporary world. Like the German and the Scandinavian peoples who wrested England from the Celtics, like the American colonists, or like the Scots and English who settled North Ireland, the Ottoman Turks colonized their conquered land. Not to mention that the land belonged to the Venetians and the Ottomans fought the Venetians for Cyprus not Gcs. The accusations that the Ottomans slaughtered GCs for fun is nothing but senseless myth from ultranationalist Greek websites. Those who follow my posts will observe that I carefully select my references from those with international and scientific backgrounds and GCs, not Turkish. Although there are also many credible Turkish sources, I know that they will stamped automatically as "propaganda". Hence, I again present from a book by an author that has written his piece in favor of the GC side of the Cyprus problem (from The Rise and Fall of the Cyprus Republic by Kyriacos C. Markides, Yale University Press). I ask all to read with an open heart and a clear conscience:

“The Turkish Cypriot conquest can be thought of as a turning point in the evolution of Cypriot society. Its effects were tantamount to a true revolution, but a revolution imposed from the outside. The conquest brought about three fundamental changes in the Cypriot social structure whose effects are still deeply felt: (1) the destruction of European feudalism (mainly by Franks and Venetians) (2) the restoration of the Greek Orthodox church to its former position of dominance, and (3) the settlement on Cyprus of a sizable Turkish minority.

The Turks once they conquered Cyprus, either killed or expelled the European nobles. The feudal system was abolished and land was distributed to the former serfs, who were Orthodox Christians, and to the newly arrived Muslim settlers. The Turkish conquest, furthermore, created ethnic heterogeneity. Turkish migrants settled in Cyprus, and gradually a sizeable Turkish community was formed, eventually composing 18 percent of the total population.

Last, and the most significant, the Turkish conquest restored the Greek Orthodox church to its former princely status and endowed it with unprecedented secular and spiritual powers. The authority vacuum created by the abolition of the aristocratic order was filled by the church, which became the most central institution in Greek Cypriot society. The Turks recognized only Orthodoxy as the official non-Muslim religion of the island, and they persecuted the Catholics. In short, the Turks reversed the situation that existed under feudalism. In addition, the sultan vested the church with special administrative privileges, such as collecting state taxes and officially representing the Orthodox Greek s in Istanbul. The archbishop was elevated to the status of Ethnarc, national leader or political spokesman for the Greek population. Consequently, the church of Cyprus became under Turkish rule the most authoritative and powerful institution on the island. It has been said that during the eighteenth century the archbishop’s political authority was almost equal, if not superior, t that of the Turkish Governor (Ref. below)”

Claude D. Cobham, Exerpta Cypria (Cambridge, Eng.: Cambridge University Press, 1908), pp. 458-59

It would certainly be one-sided and erroneous to claim that everything that the Ottomans have done was just and correct and I have no intention of doing so. Ironically, it was the Ottoman dynasty that brought the Turkish people of Anatolia to the brink of annihilation against the attacks of Greeks and European nations during the begining of the 20th century with their fossilized and backwarded rule. However, the discussion of who ruled who many centuries ago should be evaluated within the context of the times which they occurred. Empires waged war with each other for land and wealth. Greeks have done this aswell. Some succeeded, and some did not at different times. Nothing more, nothing less. Do not confuse this with the recent history of the Cyprus conflict which initiated when TCs were muscled out of the RoC to achieve subjection of Cyprus to another state rather than its independence.

[Piratis]

The accusations that the Ottomans slaughtered GCs for fun is nothing but senseless myth from ultranationalist Greek websites.

A myth? Really? "ultranationalist Greek websites"??

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted.

The above is from the USA Library of Congress. (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/cytoc.html#cy0017)

Yes, even your good friends and allies the Americans can not deny the obvious facts. And you are telling us that the turks did us a favor for butchering 10s of thousands of Cypriots and enslaving us for three centuries?

In fact based on the population of Cyprus during the 16th century, the many 10s of thousands of GCs that the turks butchered within the first months of their invasion amounts to genocide.

But the problem is not how the Turks were then. The problem is that they have not changed at all since then and even in the 21st century they continue in the same criminal way, totally disregarding that now there are things like international law and human rights that they are supposed to obey.
For them it is OK to act in the same way they acted during the middle ages!

[Murataga]

My answer to the rest is at:

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus10479-50.html

The point is made and will continue to be made to all with sense...

[Piratis]

So whats your point? That GCs deserve to be punished and have their homes stolen and their human rights violated because of what happened in the past? If thats your point here is the answer:

You oppressed us for over 3 centuries, butchering 10s of thousands of people. Then during the intecommunal conflict you killed several 100s of GCs, and then in 1974 you continues by killing 6000 people, ethnically cleansing 200.000, and illegally occupying our land for 33 years. Your crimes and illegalities started since the day you set your foot on our island and they continue until today.

Amount of time you oppressed us: 340 years (not counting the raids Turks did against our towns before they occupied us, and not counting the intercommunal conflict)

Amount of GCs killed by the Turks: 30+ thousands (bare minimum)

Who started it: The Turks

Who continue with crimes and illegalities today: The Turks

And then after all you did and continue doing against us you come to present yourselves as the victims that have to be rewarded on the expense of our human rights because during some tiny period in the past you had some 100s of victims as well, in an intercommunal conflict were you have also killed several 100s of GCs?

You are ridiculous my friend. You are nothing more than a bloodthirsty barbarian looking for excuses to continue with illegalities and crimes against us.

[Murataga]

Piratis still asks what the pooint is and at this point I have no hope that he will ever understand despite all the evidence and facts in the world. So my question is to those with a bit more dignitiy and honesty: How many GCs knew about such facts and confessions I have put at the start of this thread and what do they think after seeing them?

[pitsilos]

the opinions of 2 individuals don't really stack up to a mountain of UN resolutions now do they?

while you are doing your research, cut&paste, can you also cut&passte the relationship between intervention and ethnic cleansing?

ps. maybe if wannabe democratic countries didn't make laws to protect bullshit, i bet we will be hearing a lot more views.

tell me when you are ready to travel down the fact lane and i will post the un mountain of resolutions for you perusal

[Murataga]

Those U.N. resolutions are political and you know it. The two of the references I put above on the other hand are from:

(1) GC Orthodox priest
(2) One of the most prestigious journals of Germany

Now back to the question to those with dignitiy and honesty:

How many GCs knew about such facts and confessions I have put at the start of this thread and what do they think after seeing them?

[Jerry]

I knew about these facts - so what? Stop digging up the past. Accept the fact that both sides are equally to blame for the Cyprus Problem and seek a fair solution that does not discriminate against either community.