Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

Humanist,
You are using the "legality" of the ROC which as you know is disputed by the TC's (and in the context of the Cyprus problem this is what matters) in the same way that the TC's are using the military supremacy of the Turkish army to carry out illegal acts. ie give title deeds of land belonging to others to people who have no right to have it. The ROC is committing the same mistake as the TRNC.

Issy .... thanks, yes I agree I can see your argument clearly........ however because the issue is not of choice is of forced forces (referring here to the occupation of north cyprus by Turkey and Turkish speaking Cypriots and hence the violation of human rights of the right tof return for all refugees) it is I believe acceptable and fair for the reasons mentioned earlier in a post by Askimwos about people not being able to get bank loans etc. However to balance it andbe fair the same actions ought to be implemented for turkish speaking cypriots who consider themselves refugees, so long as they can prove that they are not living in the north out of free will. I DO NOT SUPPORT DOUBLE DIPPING ON ANY MATTER

[Pyrpolizer]

Humanist,
Thank you for your concern but unfortunately we cannot reclaim our property until a settlement is reached-Our destroyed house (well what remains of it) is actually on the Green Line in the buffer zone in Nicosia and inaccessible from either side. So I guess we qualify as refugees. I was thinking of applying to the ROC for compensation (loss of use for 44 years etc) and to be rehoused in the south just to see what their reaction would be. t would be interesting to see what they say.

Ha, ha,ha dear Issy,

You have to lick a lot of ass to give you a filthy refugee appartment 45 square meters, not even enough to place a double bed in one of the rooms. You will be lucky if you get one where the sun enters the house a few hours a day...Besides your incomes must be well below average otherwise you are not elligible.

Otherwise my friend you are on your own.

[Pyrpolizer]

Humanist,
You are using the "legality" of the ROC which as you know is disputed by the TC's (and in the context of the Cyprus problem this is what matters) in the same way that the TC's are using the military supremacy of the Turkish army to carry out illegal acts. ie give title deeds of land belonging to others to people who have no right to have it. The ROC is committing the same mistake as the TRNC.

Issy I would support your comment about the legality of the RoC if TCs instead of declaring a pseudo chose to fight for their return into the RoC administration as they clearly have the right to do. Believe me there is no legal ground for the RoC to refuse to cancel the temporary laws that bypass the constitution with regards to the need to have TCs in the administration. Instead the TC leadership chose the road of aligning themselves with Turkey and being dictated by Turkey.

Please note that what I said about the return of TCs to the RoC does not mean that this will be the final solution. I support a true BBF that will guarantee a real independence and will once and for all untie Cyprus from the motherlands and Britain.

Now as for the deeds, as I said the RoC is a welfare state and is entitled to help those sections of the population that are the most vulnerable. The fact that the RoC cannot help TCs living in the north in the same way is sad but one that is practically impossible as the RoC has no control over the occupied areas.

TCs have to realise that the RoC with all its wrongs is trying to do its best to support all its citizens and where it is feasible (i.e. hospitals, pensions, social benefits, work etc). Surely there are a lot more that need to be done, however, if you look back 3 years ago you will notice that many things have been done.

As for zan, keep on dreaming for direct trade mate. No country in the world is going to allow even the tiniest step towards recognition of a breakaway part of its territory. You complain about economic isolation, but what you are after is recognition from the back door. The RoC offered you a section of the Larnaca port and airport that the TC Chamber of Commerce can pretty much manage autonomously. What Talat did?...he called this offer a hostile offer!!!!!

We dont expect anything from the RoC Askimwos. We have not gotten anything from them but trouble since 1960. We will fight for what we want and it looks like the tide is turning.

You don't understand anything do you?
Well keep on zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....ing when others try to put something into your empty head.

[Pyrpolizer]

To all those who support the Government actions for these title deeds I have this question:

Why now? Why nor 10 years ago? Why not 20 years ago? Why nor 30 years ago??
Tell me why. Just because they waited for every refugee to fuck himself in the jungle until very few remained claiming a filthy appartment? Just to wait for everyone else to get so rich on the expense of the refugees?
Why the Government never guaranteed the value of refugee properties in the occupied so that the refugees could get a lawn from the Banks. (OK I know now something has changed but yet not to the full value maybe 10% I am not sure)

Don't you people understand that if there were no refugees this and every other Government would most propably have no reason to exist, and nobody would take them seriously for ANYTHING?

[Kifeas]

Askimwos
Turkey was not responsible for making me a refugee-it was Greek Cypriots who attacked us in 63. The fact that Turkey ocuppied 1/3 of Cyprus 10 years after we lwere made regugees is irrelevant in our case.

Issy, GCs in 1963 did not attack you in order to kick you out of your house and usurp it, as you make it sound, or as Turkey did in 1974! It was a civil war, an intercommunal conflict, during which, in your case, GCs (under the RoC banner) attacked the area in which you was living in order to clear out (neutralise) the quarter from TMT militia that was gathering weapons for the sole aim of creating violent incidents that would "compel" Turkey to invade and partition the island. You apparently left the area to move to a safer place, during the fighting, but you have chosen never to try and return back to it after the fighting was over, either because you have decided to live Cyprus or because the TC leadership established enclaves and simply did not allow the TCs to move out of them due to their need to summon and collectively control them more easily for the cause of partition. I know it may sound simplistic, but that is where it all boils down.

Have you tried to return back to your house or ask compensation or assistance for the repairing of your house, from the RoC, for the purpose of returning back to it, and have been refused any help? If yes, then you are perfectly entitled to blame the government for making and keeping you a refugee in your country. However, I doubt you or any other TC has ever taken such an approach, since the vast majority had wilfully become recruited and mobilised to the cause of your leadership and the TMT, which was better served through the establishment and maintenance of the enclaves.

Yes, you are a victim or the events and the circumstances of those days, but this is not entirely due to the GC side. The TC leadership and the TMT bear an equal responsibility, for forcing the hand of the RoC and the GCs to take the actions they took, since there is absolute no country on the planet that would like and allow to have a state within a state, scattered around its territory, towns and villages; and a section of its society (even if it is a whole community) to be privately armed for the purpose of sealing off a part of the country’s territory and partition it with the help of a foreign government. If you can blame the RoC for whatever action it took then, I must tell you that the Turkish state and the Turkish military have done 100 times worst things against the Kurdish so-called separatist PKK, during all these years, and the “price” was mostly paid by the entire Kurdish communities of the SE parts of Turkey in a much more sever way than the ordinary TCs have been affected in Cyprus during the 1960’s.

Nevertheless, the reason why today (and for the last 33 years) you cannot return to your property is not because of the 1963 events, but because of the 1974 events and the occupation of the north by Turkey. Your house today is in the buffer zone, in the same way that the houses and properties of hundreds of GCs are in the buffer zone. In which case, you are entitled to the same whatever aid that all those GCs that are in a similar situation do and have! You only need to apply for it, should you wish to return back and live in Cyprus (in the south.)

[Issy1956]

Kifeas,
I am sure we are both the victims of unfortunate circumstances. I can categorically confirm that we were in no way or shape involved in any para military groups. It is not physically possible for us to return to our house then nor is it possible now- I do agree that there are probably many GC in the same position as us. The house itself was set alight and burned down so returning to it would not really have helped. I wonder what stratagic purpose that served other than to remove us from the area. We did not seek any assistance from the ROC as we were in fear of our lives from our GC neighbours and the reources of the T/C side were such that we lived in a tent for a while before we chose to leave the country. There was no compulsion for us to remain in the enclaves -it was only fear of the GC's that kept us in the enclave.
I do agree that both sides bear responsibility for the these unfortunate events but the lions share goes to the GCs nationalists who persued their vision ignoring the possible consequences-they are the primary authors of these sad events.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,
I am sure we are both the victims of unfortunate circumstances. I can categorically confirm that we were in no way or shape involved in any para military groups. It is not physically possible for us to return to our house then nor is it possible now- I do agree that there are probably many GC in the same position as us. The house itself was set alight and burned down so returning to it would not really have helped. I wonder what stratagic purpose that served other than to remove us from the area. We did not seek any assistance from the ROC as we were in fear of our lives from our GC neighbours and the reources of the T/C side were such that we lived in a tent for a while before we chose to leave the country. There was no compulsion for us to remain in the enclaves -it was only fear of the GC's that kept us in the enclave.
I do agree that both sides bear responsibility for the these unfortunate events but the lions share goes to the GCs nationalists who persued their vision ignoring the possible consequences-they are the primary authors of these sad events.

Issy, all the careful independed expert analysts (not the journalists of some UK and US media, some of whom might have as well been bought in to report things in the way they did,) lead to the almost certain conclusion that the December 1963 violent events were provoked and intimated by the TMT and the Turkish secret services. These were the findings of the British officers that were in Cyprus and became the first UN mission to take positions in Nicosia, between the two sides, (Field Marshal Carver,) and these were the findings of other independed authors that had bothered to truly investigate what had happened.

[zan]

Askimwos
Turkey was not responsible for making me a refugee-it was Greek Cypriots who attacked us in 63. The fact that Turkey ocuppied 1/3 of Cyprus 10 years after we lwere made regugees is irrelevant in our case.

Issy, GCs in 1963 did not attack you in order to kick you out of your house and usurp it, as you make it sound, or as Turkey did in 1974! It was a civil war, an intercommunal conflict, during which, in your case, GCs (under the RoC banner) attacked the area in which you was living in order to clear out (neutralise) the quarter from TMT militia that was gathering weapons for the sole aim of creating violent incidents that would "compel" Turkey to invade and partition the island. You apparently left the area to move to a safer place, during the fighting, but you have chosen never to try and return back to it after the fighting was over, either because you have decided to live Cyprus or because the TC leadership established enclaves and simply did not allow the TCs to move out of them due to their need to summon and collectively control them more easily for the cause of partition. I know it may sound simplistic, but that is where it all boils down.

Have you tried to return back to your house or ask compensation or assistance for the repairing of your house, from the RoC, for the purpose of returning back to it, and have been refused any help? If yes, then you are perfectly entitled to blame the government for making and keeping you a refugee in your country. However, I doubt you or any other TC has ever taken such an approach, since the vast majority had wilfully become recruited and mobilised to the cause of your leadership and the TMT, which was better served through the establishment and maintenance of the enclaves.

Yes, you are a victim or the events and the circumstances of those days, but this is not entirely due to the GC side. The TC leadership and the TMT bear an equal responsibility, for forcing the hand of the RoC and the GCs to take the actions they took, since there is absolute no country on the planet that would like and allow to have a state within a state, scattered around its territory, towns and villages; and a section of its society (even if it is a whole community) to be privately armed for the purpose of sealing off a part of the country’s territory and partition it with the help of a foreign government. If you can blame the RoC for whatever action it took then, I must tell you that the Turkish state and the Turkish military have done 100 times worst things against the Kurdish so-called separatist PKK, during all these years, and the “price” was mostly paid by the entire Kurdish communities of the SE parts of Turkey in a much more sever way than the ordinary TCs have been affected in Cyprus during the 1960’s.

Nevertheless, the reason why today (and for the last 33 years) you cannot return to your property is not because of the 1963 events, but because of the 1974 events and the occupation of the north by Turkey. Your house today is in the buffer zone, in the same way that the houses and properties of hundreds of GCs are in the buffer zone. In which case, you are entitled to the same whatever aid that all those GCs that are in a similar situation do and have! You only need to apply for it, should you wish to return back and live in Cyprus (in the south.)

All the time shouting ENOSIS ENOSIS.

[Issy1956]

Kifeas,
With due respect I have to disagree with this analysis however I am prepared to look at any evidence that you may be able to point me to. I would be grateful for any links that shows that these events were initiated by the TMT and Turkish Intelligence.