Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Hmm, I thought to write a summary post, with all the download links so far to chapters of my report: (to download, right click on the links below - save target as)


Introduction: http://www.help-net.gr/Introduction.pdf

Chapter 1 - Attitudes: http://www.help-net.gr/Chapter1_Attitudes.pdf

Chapter 2 - Security: http://www.help-net.gr/Chapter2_Security.pdf

Chapter 3 - Governance: http://www.help-net.gr/Chapter3_Governance.pdf

Chapter 4 - Property: http://www.help-net.gr/Chapter4_Property.pdf

Chapter 5 - Settlers: http://www.help-net.gr/Chapter5_Settlers.pdf


More to come next week ...

[Alexandros Lordos]

I've clarified the issue of religion Vs violence in my survey of TCs, I think the following chart will dispel confusion:



The "ethno-religious nationalists" are the far-right wingers who have blended in their sense of identity nationalistic and religious elements, in a very similar way to the Greek ethno-religious nationalists. The nationalistic element, however, is stronger than the religious. (again, like the equivalent Greek group)

The "religious pacifists" are those who are quite religious, and tend to interpret the Koran and Islam in a pacifist non-violent manner. (again, there is an equivalent GC group, from my experience)

People with "Unsure Identity" are not sure how they feel about religion or about the use of violence. (in this group also, the GC equivalent exists)

"Left-Wing pacifists" are non-religious individuals who believe in modern humanistic values of peace and reconciliation. (again, GC equivalent group also exists)

[Alexandros Lordos]

Any thoughts by anyone about the above "ethno-religious" distinctions? Insan, mehmet, do the above distinctions ring true?

[insan]

The "ethno-religious nationalists" are the far-right wingers who have blended in their sense of identity nationalistic and religious elements, in a very similar way to the Greek ethno-religious nationalists. The nationalistic element, however, is stronger than the religious. (again, like the equivalent Greek group)

According to my point of view; they are the self-seekers who hide themselves behind nationalism to exploit the nationalistic feelings of "ordinary" Turkish descendant people worldwide in order to keep themselves in power and secure their social status. I've never heard them using any kind of religious rhetoric. Muslim is what is written in their identity cards, that's all. Therfore, I don't think they have a religious identity in any degree. The above definition suits the core group of Turkey's far right but not TCs. Though there are people among the so-called TC nationalists which are members of MHP(Nationalist Movement Party) but they are a bunch of idiots who were sent by MHP for spreading the nationalist ideology to TC youth.

The "religious pacifists" are those who are quite religious, and tend to interpret the Koran and Islam in a pacifist non-violent manner. (again, there is an equivalent GC group, from my experience)

Again, I believe that; there's no such kind of religious passifist among any group of TCs but perhaps there is a very small group among the settlers who came afterwards 90s.


P

eople with "Unsure Identity" are not sure how they feel about religion or about the use of violence. (in this group also, the GC equivalent exists)

What does that mean, Alexandros?

"Left-Wing pacifists" are non-religious individuals who believe in modern humanistic values of peace and reconciliation. (again, GC equivalent group also exists)

This is true for enlightened, intellectual and core groups of left-wingers but not true for vast majority of left-wingers. The left-wing parties are the only alternative for the exploited working classes. If there's no systematic and conscious orientation program to stimulate these masses towards the real values of leftism; these people can easily change their political party in direction of their interests and narrow world view.


Ps: Political exploitation based upon religious elements does not work in North Cyprus unlike how it was/is in GC community. There are huge differences between TCs and GCs concerning the religious issues. For centuries GC community ruled by the Church and bishops unlike the TC community.

Thus I don't think there are similarities between the Ethno- religious nationalists of GC community with any groups of TCs.

[tcypriot]

except for the findings concerning religious-pacificts, the above findings match the truth, in my opinion.

i dont think the Turkish Cypriot Nation posseses such large number of religious people.

[insan]

Alexandros,

I think your real aim is to analyze the relation between religion and violence. In northern Cyprus violence is not something originate from religious elements.

1- At the individual level; violence is related with the people's education level and/or nature and/or materialistic interests.

2- At the group level the violence is related with both all of the above pointed reasons in particular; besides common group interests in general.


Neither of them has their roots in religious factors unless there is any organized attack towards their religious symbols and traditions. Yes, in northern Cyprus, religion is all about a moderetly implemented tradition for vast majority of TCs and settlers.

As it is seen, the roots of violance is mainly related with the interests and/or rights and/or what they concider as their rights. At the point someone or any group disturb the other(s) interests; violence may arise in any dgree or extend; dependent to the individual/group, "quality" of interest, circumstances etc.


The retaliatory and emotional violence also must be taken into consideration when examining the origins of violence.

Now I think if you categorize the above groups in relation with education level as follows would be more convenient:

1- Extreme level concervativs

2- Moderate level conservatives

3- Non-Conservatives


In my opinion, the picture you've drawn above will give a scary message to the GC community. Such a picture, which to me does not reflect any kind of profile of TC community or the citizens of North; would only serve to scare GC community and push them nearer to the partition idea.

[Alexandros Lordos]

In my opinion, the picture you've drawn above will give a scary message to the GC community. Such a picture, which to me does not reflect any kind of profile of TC community or the citizens of North; would only serve to scare GC community and push them nearer to the partition idea.

Well, I don't intend to use it as part of my published report ... that's why I am discussing it here instead, more for my own understanding than anything else.

The "religious pacifists" I think, is the movement that Erdogan symbolises, "Muslim Democrats" so to speak, in parallel to the "christian democrat" movement of Europe. This is a group that has been on the rise ideologically in recent years, and surely the TC community is not immune to mainstream Turkish ideological currents... so I don't see why you are surprised with that. Haven't you been seeing more women with head-scarves in recent years, quiet persons who wouldn't hurt anyone? This is who the group symbolises. No particular correlation to settler status though.

The "Unsure Identity" group, is people who are uncertain both about the role of violence and about the role of religion ... it is people who are in transition, who do not identify either with nationalist ideology or left wing ideology or islamic ideology.

The "ethno-religious nationalists" are essentially right wing nationalists. Many in this group are settlers who came in the 1980s, presumably to support the "creation of the TRNC". It's not that they are explicitly religious, but if you ask them if they believe in Islam and so on, they will consider it a matter of pride to say that they do. Such people are more likely to remember Islam when they see a Greek/Christian, and then they will say "ah, we are Turks and Muslims, Christians shouldn't be around". Basically, I wouldn't really desribe them as religious in any meaningful sense of the word ... as I said,we have the same bunch of people also in the Greek side.

Insan, as I said I do not intend to publish this particular group analysis, because as you say it is information that some people might abuse to promote the idea of partition.

However, this does not change the fact that some people, a minority, about 15% of the TC side and 10% of the GC side (according to my estimate), will actively seek to put obstacles in the re-integration of Cyprus after the solution (surely you will agree with this much, even if you disbelieve the above group analysis). They will try to intimidate GCs coming to live in the north (or do you think the Grey Wolves are going to roll out a red carpet to the GCs?), and also the equivalent GC groups may intimidate TCs living in the south. Also, they will spurn the Federal Government and seek to put obstacles in its functioning. And some of these people are going to be hiding behind some priests and some imams (certainly not the majority of priests and imams).

I am just saying we should be aware of the problem in advance, so that we plan for it - for instance, start planning our anti-nationalist education ...

That's all I am saying ...

P.S. I won't be writing in the forum for the next few days, because I am going to the conference I was telling you about earlier. Have a good week - and I will tell you all the news when I return.

[insan]

However, this does not change the fact that some people, a minority, about 15% of the TC side and 10% of the GC side (according to my estimate), will actively seek to put obstacles in the re-integration of Cyprus after the solution (surely you will agree with this much, even if you disbelieve the above group analysis).

I completely agree with this... You are right about your estimations that 10-15 percent of people from each side have an extreme mentality and can be easily provoked to get organized for anything for their group interests.

They will try to intimidate GCs coming to live in the north (or do you think the Grey Wolves are going to roll out a red carpet to the GCs?),

Hahaha! It's true, Alexandros.

and also the equivalent GC groups may intimidate TCs living in the south. Also, they will spurn the Federal Government and seek to put obstacles in its functioning. And some of these people are going to be hiding behind some priests and some imams (certainly not the majority of priests and imams).

Surely, Alexandros. It is a well known fact that ombing mosques or churches is one of the most effective provoking method of extremists.

I am just saying we should be aware of the problem in advance, so that we plan for it - for instance, start planning our anti-nationalist education ...

This is an excellent idea!

That's all I am saying ...

Now I've got it.

P.S. I won't be writing in the forum for the next few days, because I am going to the conference I was telling you about earlier. Have a good week - and I will tell you all the news when I return.

I'll look forward to hear some good news from you...


Best wishes

[/quote]

[brother]

Have a good time

[cannedmoose]

Great stuff Alex, hope the presentation goes well... don't drink too much Zivania beforehand, or you'll be like this