Cyprus-Forum.com

[BigDutch]

I regularly read that the TC's say the constitution was changed so they left the government, however having just read this article :

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/13_points.htm

which appear to try and resolve governing issues i mean it was titled :

"Suggested Measures For The Removal of Causes of Friction Between the Two Communities"

I read previously that the "TC View" is Makarios changed the constitution but it is "suggested measures" only ?

Also he writes :

"I have today conveyed the attached Memorandum to the Vice- President, Dr. Kutchuk, inviting him to talks with a view to resolving the various difficulties set out in the Memorandum. "

Did these talks take place ? What was the result ? It would appear talks never happened as i read elsewhere :

"It is significant, however, that the Turkish Government rejected them before the Turkish Cypriot Community had commented on such proposals."

What was it that caused an issue for Turkey ?

Can anyone really say there was anything in the 13-points which would have been a negative "thing" for the country as a whole ? If so please note the point and the negative aspect in your reply.

cheers

[Get Real!]

The Turkish Cypriot community has always been a sad lot for they have never really had their say in anything either because of ignorance or a total naive reliance on Turkey to do the negotiating!

Unfortunately they don't seem to realise that Turkey stupidly thinks that Cyprus must remain divided because it's in her "interests"! If Turkey really understood what's in her interests she wouldn't be the miserable square peg in a round hole that she is.

No matter what people come up with over the years, it can never work because Turkey will always find a way to have the deal rejected either by making preposterous demands, through the introduction of new obstacles, or through some other means.

Unless Turkey is thrown out of the whole equation there can never be any solution to any of the problems.

[observer]

From the TC point of view, it has been Greece that has been the problem, starting with radio broadcasts from Athens in colonial times urging enosis, continuing with arming of EOKA, and going through to training and arming the GC national guard, some of whose members used their weapons to attack TCs. Then finally. the backing of the 1974 coup which brought Turkey into Cyprus.

[BigDutch]

thread hijackers ...... what about the 13-points ?

[observer]

Trying to answer the original question, the 13 points were a proposal, but one that took away from the TC community rights guaranteed under the Constitution. Whether in the long term it might have resulted in a smoother runner government is a question that will never be answered, but at the time (late 1963) combined with speeches from GC politicians - including Makarios - urging enosis, it was viewed with great suspicion by most TCs. That these suspicions were well founded is confirmed by the contents of the Akritas Plan which was published openly later, but written around this time.

Following the proposals, made in November 1963, according to who you believe, TC officials and representatives left the government or were prevented by armed GCs from entering their offices. Starting in December 1963 GCs launched armed attacks on TC communities making surviving TCs refugees. UN peacekeepers arrived early in 1964.

After Makarios' proposals, the attacks, and the continuing speeches about enosis, the 13 points were never going to get anywhere. From this time the island was effectively divided. Turkey's intervention was 10 years later.

[iceman]

Unless Turkey is thrown out of the whole equation there can never be any solution to any of the problems.

Keep wishing that...maybe in your next life it happens.......

[observer]

BigDutch

"It is significant, however, that the Turkish Government rejected them before the Turkish Cypriot Community had commented on such proposals."

What was it that caused an issue for Turkey ?

I can not answer for Turkey, but I can imagine that the thoughts that went through their minds in 1963 were:

1. A hostile power (Greece) to the West. A hostile power (USSR) to the North. Hostile powers (Syria/Iraq) to the East. Following enosis - which the 13 points seemed to be aimed at in the atmosphere of the time - a hostile power to the South.

2. Other threads can tell you about massacres of Greeks by Turks, and of Turks by Greeks for the preceeding 80 years (some will say longer), so Turkey felt a moral duty to its fellow Turkish speakers.

3. A Treaty obligation. I can't recall if Turkey said no before the Turkish Cypriot leaders, but there is little doubt that the TC leaders would have said no. As it was, any prospect of sensible discussion was swept away by the resultant violence.

[cypezokyli]

most of the points could have been accepted by the tc leadership without big problems.
2 or 3 where indeed vital, and at they tc could be considered justified in rejecting them.

the problem of the 13 points, was not so much what they proposed but the climate in which they were proposed.
we are talking about a place which is (correctly imo) often reffered in the literature as a "reluctant republic". the leadership of the constituent people of the republic didnot really wanted to make it work, they both had other aims. and at the same time both were arming themselves against each other, and had secret "defensive plans".

besides that, precisely in that period in which the 13 points were proposed the press was fuelling nationalism on both sides.

concequently, there has never been any serious discussion on the 13 points, since a civil war broke down

[Piratis]

The 13 points were nothing more than a proposal to bring Cyprus constitution more in line with what exists in all other democratic countries.

The Cyprus constitution instead of being created democratically by Cypriots it was instead written abroad and Cypriots were simply forced to sign it.

That constitution included several undemocratic and racist parameters, for example that the 18% of TCs should have the 30% of governmental jobs, that inevitably created friction and problems between the two communities. Apparently those that designed this constitution had their own interests in mind, and didn't give a fuck about the interests of Cyprus. (and who is surprised by this?)

So what happened was that the government was unable to fulfill 30% of governmental jobs from the 18% of TCs, and this unfair quota was not kept. In retaliation the TC minority used the veto powers that they were given to veto down the taxes. Without taxes the state could not function and it was about to collapse.

This is what made Makarios to make those proposals that would bring the Cyprus constitution more in like with what existed in other democratic countries and would remove some of the unfair and undemocratic factors that created the problems.

These proposals not only were rejected immediately by Turkey, but the TCs supposedly were so offended that Makarios even dared to make proposals that would take away some of the undemocratic and unfair rights they had, that they abandoned the government and parliament and refused to even have a peaceful discussion about it. Soon after the armed intercommunal conflict started between paramilitary groups of the two sides.

Those proposals were never even implemented. They were just proposals. However according to the TC propaganda it was such a terrible crime that a president of a country even dared to make proposals that would make his country more democratic and more in line with what exists in all other democratic countries in the world.

[Kikapu]

most of the points could have been accepted by the tc leadership without big problems.
2 or 3 where indeed vital, and at they tc could be considered justified in rejecting them.

the problem of the 13 points, was not so much what they proposed but the climate in which they were proposed.
we are talking about a place which is (correctly imo) often reffered in the literature as a "reluctant republic". the leadership of the constituent people of the republic didnot really wanted to make it work, they both had other aims. and at the same time both were arming themselves against each other, and had secret "defensive plans".

besides that, precisely in that period in which the 13 points were proposed the press was fuelling nationalism on both sides.

concequently, there has never been any serious discussion on the 13 points, since a civil war broke down

cypezokyli,

Do you know at all, whether or not, any of the 13 points that were proposed by Makarios to be amended, were part of the "48 articles" in the constitution, which were in "perpetuity" ....(for ever).. from changing them.?????