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INTERNATIONAL ISOLATION ON NORTH CYPRUS IS UNACCEPTABLE

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby zan » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:09 pm

Kikapu wrote:

Sorry Zan, that I do not paint a pretty picture, but as I said, it is only one man's opinion.

How did I absolve anything that the GC's done or not doing. Same time, how did I put all the blame on us. I'm just answering VP's question, that's all.

Let's not fool ourselves Zan. You are not going to be in Cyprus with your " People", when the shit happens, and nor will you be living in any 3rd world developing country. As VP says, it's easy to dictate from THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY:

May I ask, when was the last time you were in Cyprus.



Five years ago in Cyprus and two years ago in Turkey. As for living in a third world country.......If I had the money to spare ( Maybe in a few more years when my children are out of private schooling) I will buy a place in Turkey. You obviously have no idea as to what Turkey is like. How hard the people work and how educated they are. The people working in our resort were from all over Turkey. They all spoke a minimum of four languages and where all at some further education courses. Very cosmopolitan and well ahead of the donkey riding Cypriots that you have attached yourself to. These people are more European than any Cypriot can dream of being. Sure, if you go into the remote parts of this vast country you can find the type of people that you would believe run the country but go to a little village in Cyprus and see the same people still watering their plants with old Helim tenekes. You really need to get out of your American insular self and get to see what is happening all around you. You are not one of the majority of yanks that do not even have a passport are you. I don't guess at what I am saying I have seen it for myself. I have not lost contact with my family in Cyprus but am constantly seeing my three sisters that are going to and from there. If I could get my dads 56 donums of land back then I would build a house in the middle of it and relax with my people as well. The fact that these same people do not need me to grab a gun and stand vigil over them goes without saying as you guys constantly remind yourselves that there are 40,000 others doing that. Where I can help is to give the reassurance that we the Diaspora have not forgotten them and we will help in every way we can. What are you doing.
Last edited by zan on Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:19 pm

askimwos wrote:zan why are you so sure that the GC want to take things from the TCs? Have you ever asked any GC what kind of solution they want?

There are more than 20-30 GCs on this forum and only a couple have said anything like TCs only getting minority status.

The fact is that the GCs voted No to the annan plan. There must be a few thins that have found unacceptable in order to reach this decision. The RoC seems ready to speak about what they really want under the 8th July agreement process. It seems that at the time the TC side guided by Turkey refuses to listen but want to sleep on the benefits that the yes vote to the annan plan has offered them.

All forum members including you and vp have admitted that the recognition of the "trnc" means only one thing. The turkification of the north and the annexation of the north part of cyprus to turkey and therefore the extinction of the TC identity and culture. So what remains is really to get back to the negotiation table and try to unify the island.


For 3 years your leader has been the obstacle to any new talks with our hand extended the sudden change is alarming to say the least and reeks of insincerity and possible danger, talat has to 100% sure that these talks will not put a stop to other developements which are about to come to a head...this can be one reason the other being next years GC elections.

GCs not claiming you will be a minority does not change anything we have to see concrete proposals that will guarantee this, only then can we progress.

As for recognition of the TRNC, this may mean a Turkificaiton of the north but not necessarily exsinction of TCs, plus dont forget we are Turkish in origin, the ends of the stick on both isdes is shitty for now the Turkish end is less shitty and seems to be the better option of the 2.

I agree that sincere and genuine negotiations are the way forward but both sides have to have the desire the will and the vision which is not evident and does not look like it is likely to appear if ever.
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Postby Kikapu » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:31 pm

zan wrote:Kikapu wrote:

Sorry Zan, that I do not paint a pretty picture, but as I said, it is only one man's opinion.

How did I absolve anything that the GC's done or not doing. Same time, how did I put all the blame on us. I'm just answering VP's question, that's all.

Let's not fool ourselves Zan. You are not going to be in Cyprus with your " People", when the shit happens, and nor will you be living in any 3rd world developing country. As VP says, it's easy to dictate from THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY:

May I ask, when was the last time you were in Cyprus.



Five years ago in Cyprus and two years ago in Turkey. As for living in a third world country.......If I had the money to spare ( Maybe in a few more years when my children are out of private schooling) I will but a place in Turkey. You obviously have no idea as to what Turkey is like. How hard the people work and how educated they are. The people working in our resort were from all over Turkey. They all spoke a minimum of four languages and where all at some further education courses. Very cosmopolitan and well ahead of the donkey riding Cypriots that you have attached yourself to. These people are more European than any Cypriot can dream of being. Sure, if you go into the remote parts of this vast country you can find the type of people that you would believe run the country but go to a little village in Cyprus and see the same people still watering their plants with old Helim tenekes. You really need to get out of your American insular self and get to see what is happening all around you. You are not one of the majority of yanks that do not even have a passport are you. I don't guess at what I am saying I have seen it for myself. I have not lost contact with my family in Cyprus but am constantly seeing my three sisters that are going to and from there. If I could get my dads 56 donums of land back then I would build a house in the middle of it and relax with my people as well. The fact that these same people do not need me to grab a gun and stand vigil over them goes without saying as you guys constantly remind yourselves that there are 40,000 others doing that. Where I can help is to give the reassurance that we the Diaspora have not forgotten them and we will help in every way we can. What are you doing.


I too have travelled to Turkey many times over, and yes, people do work very hard at the resorts to make a hard earned living, putting in 16 hours a day. They also do speak other languages, but the refrence to the 3rd world developing country just means that, which Turkey is developing, with the extreme rich, very little middle class, and the rest being the poor. Now you understand, why they need to work 16 hours a day. But once you go away from the Western and the Southern Coastlines, then real Turkey appears. Please do not mislead the life of the Turks, on what you see around the resorts.

I was not asking you to do anything in Cyprus Zan. I was just curios, as to the last time, you were in Cyprus. Besides, my comments about 3rd world developing country, was meant for Northern Cyprus, with more settlers coming over, if annexation were to happen. Lets hope for peace, so that you can build your dream house on your land and water the plants with an old "teneke". :wink:

By the way, I do have more than one passport. :!:
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Postby zan » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:42 pm

Kikapu wrote:
zan wrote:Kikapu wrote:

Sorry Zan, that I do not paint a pretty picture, but as I said, it is only one man's opinion.

How did I absolve anything that the GC's done or not doing. Same time, how did I put all the blame on us. I'm just answering VP's question, that's all.

Let's not fool ourselves Zan. You are not going to be in Cyprus with your " People", when the shit happens, and nor will you be living in any 3rd world developing country. As VP says, it's easy to dictate from THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY:

May I ask, when was the last time you were in Cyprus.



Five years ago in Cyprus and two years ago in Turkey. As for living in a third world country.......If I had the money to spare ( Maybe in a few more years when my children are out of private schooling) I will but a place in Turkey. You obviously have no idea as to what Turkey is like. How hard the people work and how educated they are. The people working in our resort were from all over Turkey. They all spoke a minimum of four languages and where all at some further education courses. Very cosmopolitan and well ahead of the donkey riding Cypriots that you have attached yourself to. These people are more European than any Cypriot can dream of being. Sure, if you go into the remote parts of this vast country you can find the type of people that you would believe run the country but go to a little village in Cyprus and see the same people still watering their plants with old Helim tenekes. You really need to get out of your American insular self and get to see what is happening all around you. You are not one of the majority of yanks that do not even have a passport are you. I don't guess at what I am saying I have seen it for myself. I have not lost contact with my family in Cyprus but am constantly seeing my three sisters that are going to and from there. If I could get my dads 56 donums of land back then I would build a house in the middle of it and relax with my people as well. The fact that these same people do not need me to grab a gun and stand vigil over them goes without saying as you guys constantly remind yourselves that there are 40,000 others doing that. Where I can help is to give the reassurance that we the Diaspora have not forgotten them and we will help in every way we can. What are you doing.


I too have travelled to Turkey many times over, and yes, people do work very hard at the resorts to make a hard earned living, putting in 16 hours a day. They also do speak other languages, but the refrence to the 3rd world developing country just means that, which Turkey is developing, with the extreme rich, very little middle class, and the rest being the poor. Now you understand, why they need to work 16 hours a day. But once you go away from the Western and the Southern Coastlines, then real Turkey appears. Please do not mislead the life of the Turks, on what you see around the resorts.
I was not asking you to do anything in Cyprus Zan. I was just curios, as to the last time, you were in Cyprus. Besides, my comments about 3rd world developing country, was meant for Northern Cyprus, with more settlers coming over, if annexation were to happen. Lets hope for peace, so that you can build your dream house on your land and water the plants with an old "teneke". :wink:

By the way, I do have more than one passport. :!:



What like in the US and the UK. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. I work in the houses and flats of the poor. I see where they are every day. I have to visit a hospital every couple of months and at every door there is a hand dispenser with disinfectant in it. Besides that what gives you the right to run these people down. Because you live in a more affluent country. How many shootings rare there in Turkey and how many are there in the US. Just because you have given yourself first class status does not mean it is so. These people are growing all the time. Everybody had to come from somewhere and you and others think you are above the style of living they choose for themselves. I would say better the mountains of Turkey than the slums of New York every time.
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Postby miltiades » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:14 pm

Zan , dear boy ,
You forgot to mention the glorious honour killings that take palce in this modern new world that you so much admire : You cabn get this from google ,hust ask about honour killings >
In Turkey, 'Honor Killing' Follows Families to Cities
Women Are Victims Of Village Tradition

By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, August 8, 2001; Page A01


ISTANBUL -- By Sait Kina's way of thinking, his 13-year-old daughter brought nothing but dishonor to his family: She talked to boys on the street, she ran away from home, she was the subject of neighborhood gossip.

Two months ago, when she tried to run away yet again, Kina grabbed a kitchen knife and an ax and stabbed and beat the girl until she lay dead in the blood-smeared bathroom of the family's Istanbul apartment.

He then commanded one of his daughters-in-law to clean up the mess. When his two sons came home from work 14 hours later, he ordered them to dispose of the 5-foot-3 corpse, which had been wrapped in a carpet and a blanket. The girl's head had been so mutilated, police said, it was held together by a knotted cloth.

"I fulfilled my duty," Kina told police after he was arrested, according to investigators' reports presented in the court case against the father and his two sons. "We killed her for going out with boys."

Dilber Kina's death was an "honor killing," a practice steeped in village traditions that is occurring with increasing frequency in cities across Turkey and other developing countries where massive migrations to urban areas have left families struggling to reconcile modern lifestyles and liberties with generations-old rural customs.

As members of Turkey's younger generation, especially girls, become better educated and more exposed to the world through television and city life, they are increasingly rebelling against parents who cling to traditions that prohibit socializing with the opposite sex, choosing a husband or visiting freely with friends outside the home.

The mounting social pressures on both generations have led to an alarming increase in murders, beatings and other violence within families, as well as suicides among urban and rural girls and women, according to police, women's organizations and social researchers.

"Honor crimes are happening all over Turkey," said Pinar Ilkkaracan, director of a human rights group in Istanbul that campaigns for changes in Turkish laws that discriminate against women. "Honor killings are the tip of the iceberg. What is under the surface is terrifying."

Researchers estimate at least 200 girls and women are murdered each year by their families in Turkey; the real numbers, they say, may be far greater. Women's organizations say their estimates -- and their conclusion that honor crimes are on the rise -- are based on reports from local organizations and activists scattered across the country and from local newspapers that document cases investigated by police. Accurate statistics do not exist because police records do not break down homicides into specific types, and honor crimes often go unreported.

The United Nations reported that as many as 5,000 women and girls worldwide were killed last year by family members, "many of them for the 'dishonor' of having been raped."

While many of the countries experiencing the surge in honor crimes are predominantly Muslim, such as Turkey, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Egypt and Jordan, incidents are also increasing in nations as disparate as Brazil, Italy, Uganda and Britain, the United Nations found.

In Turkey, honor crimes have become part of a national debate over women's rights. Perpetrators of such crimes are legally permitted shorter prison terms than those who commit similar crimes for other reasons. Sentences for rape are eased if the victim is not a virgin. And a man, as head of a household, can determine whether his wife can hold a job.

Under pressure from women's rights groups and the European Union, which is considering Turkey's bid for membership, the legislature is expected to vote in the coming months on significant changes to the country's civil code. Lawmakers are also facing growing calls from women's groups to amend criminal statutes that give judges leeway to consider local custom and tradition as factors in levying penalties for a variety of crimes. But efforts to amend even the most outdated laws have become mired in the politics of competing factions torn, like many families, between preserving tradition and fostering greater equality between men and women in Turkish society.

Turkey is one of the world's most rapidly urbanizing countries, having shifted in less than half a century from a country where 75 percent of the population lived in rural areas to one in which the same proportion lives in cities.

"People put their traditions in their luggage, along with their pillows and sheets," said Mehmet Farac, who wrote a book on honor crimes in Turkey and has conducted some of the most definitive research on the subject. "Therefore they cannot break their ties with their society and traditions. Sometimes a girl wearing jeans or lipstick, combing her hair, or the way she looks in a mirror can make the family uncomfortable."

Dilber Kina was 5 when her family left its farm in Siirt, a village in the southeast, and moved to Istanbul eight years ago. The men found work driving taxis to support an extended family with 15 members crammed into one small first-floor apartment.

The more Dilber tried to escape the noisy, crowded living conditions and her domineering father, the angrier he became. "He was going crazy," said Birgul Kina, Dilber's sister-in-law, who mopped the blood off the bathroom floor, fixtures and walls. "She was always running away from the house."

Asked why Sait Kina killed his daughter, she replied, "He did it all for his dignity."

Dilber's mother, Maynur, refused to discuss the slaying. "She's gone, she's dead, it's finished," she said, wiping her hands together as though she were brushing off dust.

Frequently, honor killings are conducted in an even more calculated manner, according to women's rights lawyers and police officials. In the feudal, patriarchal society of rural villages, where a woman's honor is a family's only measurable commodity in an impoverished community, male family members gather to vote on the death of women. They also decide who will carry out the killing -- usually someone under the age of 18 who will be treated more leniently under the law.

In Turkey, the killing of a family member draws the most stern penalty allowable: death or life in prison. But if a judge rules there was provocation for the killing -- such as a question of honor -- the penalty can be reduced. If the defendant is a minor and behaves during the trial and detention in jail, the penalty is frequently cut to two years or less.

"No witnesses speak, so the court has to believe what the perpetrator says, and he gets the minimum charge, although it's homicide and it's in cold blood" said Canan Arin, who heads the women's rights center of the Istanbul Bar Association.

Last April, two sisters age 12 and 14 and their 17-year-old cousin were allegedly shot dead by male relatives because they were seen socializing with boys. The extended family had moved to the outskirts of Istanbul from the eastern province of Bitlis five years earlier.

"They were children; they were very young," said Ismail Kaya, a relative not implicated in the killings. "They [the accused] are young too. One of them is only 17. I feel sorry for everyone."

Kaya added, however: "This is our tradition. Tradition has to be followed."

On an autumn day two years ago, in a village in rural eastern Turkey, the grandfather, father and uncle of a 25-year-old woman held a meeting. They were Sunni Muslims and believed the woman had dishonored their family by marrying a man from the rival Alevi Muslim sect against the father's wishes.

The father walked out of the room, called to his 16-year-old son, draped his arm around the boy's shoulders and handed him a rifle, according to the son, who described the events on the condition that his name not be used for fear of revenge by family members.

The teenager, who could barely hold the gun, was stunned. Only after spending nearly four months teaching the youth to hunt and shoot did his father issue the order: "Your sister has done wrong. You have to kill her."

The father continued: "You are young. This is your task. You will only stay in prison a few weeks. We'll buy you more new clothes. Your uncle in Germany will bring you to Germany."

The first time the boy went to the village where his sister lived, he returned home and told his father, "I can't do it. I won't." His father beat him and ordered him back.

A few days later he walked to the village, said hello to his brother-in-law outside the house, went inside, spotted his sister doing housework with her back to him and pulled the trigger.

The youth spent 11 months in prison before a judge released him six months ago, even though a final verdict has not been rendered in his case.

"My crime was ignorance," he said in an anguished voice, adding that he is now hiding from his family. "The criminals in this case were my father and grandfather. They forced me to do it."

The clash between traditional and modern lifestyles also has driven up suicide rates among girls and young women in cities and towns across Turkey, according to police and social workers. Although Turkish authorities keep no such statistics, women's groups and newspapers have reported dozens of suicides in the last year of young women unable to face family pressures.

Esin Sahin was one of them. Four years ago she ran away from her parents' apartment in an immigrant community in the Istanbul hills near the Bosporus Strait to marry the man she loved, a Sunni Muslim. Her father, an Alevi Muslim, was enraged.

"We wanted her to be with someone from our own sect," said Erengul Sahin, 43, her mother. For four years, the mother said, she never visited her daughter. When the daughter began having marital problems, relatives told her she had brought shame on her family once and should not do so again by leaving her husband.

On Dec. 14, 10 days before her 22nd birthday, Esin hanged herself from a gas pipe in her Istanbul apartment.

"If we hadn't been here, this wouldn't have happened," her mother lamented, even though the family had moved out of the village years ago.

But Esin's cousin, Nurcan Fidan, 22, a schoolteacher listening to the mother's account, said it is time her parents' generation changed its attitudes.

"If we stayed in the village, we'd all be farmers or farmers' wives," Fidan said. "We wouldn't grow as a country or as a society. In the world there is good and evil. This is life."

Researcher Yesim Forsyth contributed to this report.
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Postby zan » Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:22 pm

So on that basis Miltiades what number, in your estimate of sensless shootings in the USA would you equate to one Honour killing in Turkey. Don't get me wrong I condemn them both but lets get some perspective here. If you had the choice where would you pick to live. The slums of New york or the mountains of Turkey. Arranged marriages or arranged funerals. :roll:
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:22 am

zan wrote:What like in the US and the UK. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. I work in the houses and flats of the poor. I see where they are every day. I have to visit a hospital every couple of months and at every door there is a hand dispenser with disinfectant in it. Besides that what gives you the right to run these people down. Because you live in a more affluent country. How many shootings rare there in Turkey and how many are there in the US. Just because you have given yourself first class status does not mean it is so. These people are growing all the time. Everybody had to come from somewhere and you and others think you are above the style of living they choose for themselves. I would say better the mountains of Turkey than the slums of New York every time.


I guess you have not heard about the homeless in San Francisco.

I'm talking about nations and where they are as far as their development, and not individual people. I have been working very hard myself, and as a good human being, I would never elevate myself above another person, who ever they may be, so get off your "soap opera" performance with your guilt tripping journey.
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Postby Kikapu » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:28 am

zan wrote:So on that basis Miltiades what number, in your estimate of sensless shootings in the USA would you equate to one Honour killing in Turkey. Don't get me wrong I condemn them both but lets get some perspective here. If you had the choice where would you pick to live. The slums of New york or the mountains of Turkey. Arranged marriages or arranged funerals. :roll:


There are close to 3,000 murders a MONTH, in the USA.

It is a violent society.

I for one would not say, that the USA was perfect..........but they are not a 3rd world developing country, economically. Socially, they need a lot of work.
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Postby paaul12 » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:29 am

Kikapu wrote:

If The TC's return back to the RoC, there may be a firing squad waiting for them, after a military trial,


Do you for one second think that the EU your real leaders will allow you to go around killing people, its not 1962 or 1974 in case you have forgotten!!!


The European Union (EU) is opposed to the death penalty in all cases and has consistently espoused its universal abolition, working towards this goal. In countries which maintain the death penalty, the EU aims at the progressive restriction of its scope and respect for the strict conditions, set forth in several international human rights instruments, under which the capital punishment may be used, as well as at the establishment of a moratorium on executions so as to completely eliminate the death penalty.



:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby zan » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:30 am

Kikapu wrote:
zan wrote:What like in the US and the UK. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. I work in the houses and flats of the poor. I see where they are every day. I have to visit a hospital every couple of months and at every door there is a hand dispenser with disinfectant in it. Besides that what gives you the right to run these people down. Because you live in a more affluent country. How many shootings rare there in Turkey and how many are there in the US. Just because you have given yourself first class status does not mean it is so. These people are growing all the time. Everybody had to come from somewhere and you and others think you are above the style of living they choose for themselves. I would say better the mountains of Turkey than the slums of New York every time.


I guess you have not heard about the homeless in San Francisco.

I'm talking about nations and where they are as far as their development, and not individual people. I have been working very hard myself, and as a good human being, I would never elevate myself above another person, who ever they may be, so get off your "soap opera" performance with your guilt tripping journey.


It's not me that is doing the discrimination. I have not dubbed any nation over the other but you are constantly having a go and calling other nations Third World countries. I take people and nations for what they are and do not pull the wool over my own eyes as to how great the west is. Yes they are places to live in which you can own a fancy house and car but then you have to pay a fortune in insurance and security to protect yourself. Everything is relevant to their own particular situation so climbing on the band wagon and disrespecting other nations as not being as good as yours....well.....Arrogant would you say.
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