Cyprus-Forum.com

[askimwos]

I have been reading your threads and can't understand why we always need to blame each other for our ancestor's failings on BOTH SIDES! Why can't we just say, yes.........that was then and this is NOW, and we want a solution, we want to go home and bring up our children on Cyprus hilly lands. Why can't we just forget what happened? and look forward........wake up and smell the coffee. All this blame-game leds nowhere, and as the years pass, we play straight into the politicians and fat cat's hands. Doesn't anyone else see the logic of what I am trying to say?

Without learning our lessons from the past we cannot build a future together, thats the problem. Without a structure inplace that will ensure we do not repeat or have the opportunity to reapeat the mistakes of the past we cannot move forward and we will be stuck in status quo for a very long time to come. It is this structure that we have been unable to agree as GCs see TCs as just another minority like the Pakistanis in the UK and we see ourselves as partners just like the Serbians, Montenegros, Germans French and Italians of Switzerland where we have rights above those of just an average minority group. The trust factor is below zero as the politics from both sides has not cultivated anything positive even the opening of borders has not made a difference it only served to show that the people on a one to one basis are fine but the political emphasis is still dividing the people even further.

What a hypocrite!

Do you listen to what you are saying Vp or are you just saying this for the sake of saying?
People accepted that in the past there have been atrocities from both sides. Nobody apart from the partitionists pack that includes you and unfortunately zan tried to see this process as a reconciliation process. I regret to say that this was not the case for you and zan who see this as another propaganda tool in order to perpetuate hard feelings and hatret in order to promote your partitionist agenda.
Don't you for one minute ask youself how come the GCs who have suffered more than 6,000 dead (thats 1% of the GC population at the time) and uncountable rapes continue to want reunification under the very painful solution of BBF?

It is one thing to question the past and try to heal the open wounds through this process and another to scratch an open wound as you and your likes do. So please do not talk again about learning from the past as this in your mind is no different from the process that Denktash and the grey wolves have been trying to exploit in order to maintain the climate of hatret for their partitionist agenda.

So what you are saying is we should not learn from the past to avoid making the same mistakes in the future? because you feel you suffered more (% wise I think we are about the same) but imo suffering cannot be measured in numbers. Im having problems understanding your attack could you kindly clarify your outburst. The only BBF that was put forward was rejected by no other than yoursleves and the rejecting side has done absoulutely nothing to rectfiy this rejection.

It is no sudden busrt Vp, it is fact stated as they are. Most people in this forum are willing to discuss the past in the hope that both communities know what happened and the reasons that lead to these atrocities happening so that they are not repeated in the futture. This is a process that is welcomed in order to reach catharsis.
Unfortunately catharsis in not in your mind and that says it all. What is in your mind is scaring people in order to embrace your partitionist agenda and this is no different from old Dektash and Grey wolves policies.
As for who suffered most I have said in the past that suffering is suffering and cannot be measured. I just quoted the numbers in order to show that people are willing to put the past behind them and unite again.

[zan]

When you guys stop trying to blur the edges and start accepting who is to blame for the start of all of this then and only then we can go forward. A token “we both suffered” is not enough to absolve you of the blame and the continued assault on us. You have no automatic return of land rights left and unless a real and lasting solution is sort by the RoC and they dissolve before making any more demands then nothing will happen and we will go down the route of partition. Those that are working in Piratis’ group can ignore this plea but those that are genuinely concerned and seek a permanent and fare deal should be very concerned about what their fellow countrymen are doing.

Pavlos Dinglis


Pavlos writes:

1. By 1962 Makarios had decided for the modification of the Constitution. Greece was dead against it and Kennedy also told him not to go ahead. Ismet Inonu warned Makarios not even to think about it. AKEL suggested to Makarios to unilaterally declare void the guarantor agreement, before changing the Constitution.

2. Makarios totally ignored everyone and his 13 points released a storm and even today we get what we asked for. At the Security Council, during early 1964, Spyros Kyprianou (Foreign Secretary) told members that no one was legalised to intervene in the internal affairs of a sovereign state.

3. On April 4 1964, Makarios denounced the alliance agreement. Turkey and Britain ignored him. A political issue could not be tackled with legalistic mumble.

4. The notorious Akritas Plan laid the political and material foundation for the path to change the Constitution. Papadopoulos was the main author of the Plan and the vice leader of the Organisation. Yiorgatzis was the leader. The target was Enosis but this was concealed under the veil of self determination. According to the plan, the modifications were to be enacted unilaterally since the Turkish side would never agree to them. The imposition of the changes would be achieved with the help of “the state forces” or even “friendly military forces”. These so called friendly military forces comprised of 1800 armed men belonging to the paramilitary groups of Sampson, Yiorgatzis and Lissarides.

5. The Plan itself gives a striking answer to those that kid themselves that it was just a proposition. Makarios had decided to impose the Plan unilaterally and dynamically. Something that shows that this was the case is the refusal of Makarios in 1965 to accept a proposal by the Turkish Cypriot MP’s to return to their seats, provided that the Zurich agreements would be reiterated. Klerides, who was the President of the House at the time, wrote in a statement that separate majorities were done with and the signature of the Vice President was no longer required and the Turkish Cypriot MP’s had no legal status. Thus, the position of the Vice President was, for all intense and purposes, abolished. In this way we lost a golden opportunity to return to normalcy, changing in the meantime the Constitution unilaterally, according to the Akritas Plan.

6. Lesson to be learnt:

• International agreements cannot be thrown into the dustbin, especially unilaterally. This applies especially for small countries like Cyprus. We have no sense of our size, it seems.
• The Cyprus issue is a political issue and not a legal one.
• Compromises are an inseparable part of policies
• The path of recrimination and collision is a terrible one to take. We need to take the path of reconciliation and debate.

How much wiser are we from our tragic past? The way Papadopoulos has handled the issue for the last 4 years has shown that the mentality of the 60’s is on the forefront. The path to disaster which started by Makarios is still followed. We are led towards the upgrading of the “state”, towards the two states, without inverted commas. Can we hold on to the last weed on the edge of the cliff?

The downing of the wall was a positive step. Hopefully it was not a result of outside pressure not a pre election gimmick. Talat made unacceptable arguments regarding the opening of Ledra and Limnitis. The Greek Cypriot side must regain the initiative. We need to undertake bold initiatives. No more preparations. It’s time for deeds. Papadopoulos should accept the invitation to meet Talat. No more legalistic and formalistic approaches. The road to reunification must open!

[shahmaran]

Look who is taking about racism. The ones that ethnically cleansed 200.000 people simply because of their race.

My ideas my friend are those of democracy and human rights, ideas that you fight against and you instead insist on illegality and crimes.

Yeah shame that the Turks are not a part of it, why don't you go explain your beautiful ideas to all the dead Cypriot Turks, maybe they would give a shit, tell them that they are nothing but 400 year old guests on your holy lands and that it was your "right" to try and get rid of them...

If there is any form of racism going on at the moment, it definitely belongs to the south and to people like yourself, this is more than clear!

[Piratis]

Who tried to get rid whom my friend? You butchered 1000s of GCs at a time, several times as recently as 1974 and you ethnically cleansed 200.000 people from their homeland and you are telling me that we tried to get rid of you because you had some 100s of casualties as well?

Or maybe you also believe that "One Turk equals the whole world"?

I never said that TCs are "guests". What I said is that if your argument to violate my human rights is something that some ancestor of mine did to you, then you should also see the much worst that your ancestors did to us. Very simple.

Racist are those that insist on the separation and classification of people based on their race, and they want to remove rights from one race and to give to another. Thats YOU. What I say is that everybody should get the 100% of their human and legal rights, stop all illegalities and finally have a country with no racist discriminations without using the past as an excuse to continue middle age practices in the 21st century.

[Viewpoint]

Who tried to get rid whom my friend? You butchered 1000s of GCs at a time, several times as recently as 1974 and you ethnically cleansed 200.000 people from their homeland and you are telling me that we tried to get rid of you because you had some 100s of casualties as well?

Or maybe you also believe that "One Turk equals the whole world"?

I never said that TCs are "guests". What I said is that if your argument to violate my human rights is something that some ancestor of mine did to you, then you should also see the much worst that your ancestors did to us. Very simple.

Racist are those that insist on the separation and classification of people based on their race, and they want to remove rights from one race and to give to another. Thats YOU. What I say is that everybody should get the 100% of their human and legal rights, stop all illegalities and finally have a country with no racist discriminations without using the past as an excuse to continue middle age practices in the 21st century.

Piratis you keep repeating the same things which everyone has told you is getting very boring but you never come up with any proposals as how you will take us to where you want to go.

[Piratis]

And you keep asking me the same questions.

Where we should go is obvious: for a democratic country with human rights for all and no racist discriminations. Just like it exists in all other democratic countries.

The how is also clear: the Nazi Turkey to lose the power to enforce illegalities. I could also say that another way is for Turkey to realize that this is the right way etc etc, but thats as good as hoping that Hitler would end the occupation of other countries if he was not forced.

[Viewpoint]

And you keep asking me the same questions.

Where we should go is obvious: for a democratic country with human rights for all and no racist discriminations. Just like it exists in all other democratic countries.

The how is also clear: the Nazi Turkey to lose the power to enforce illegalities. I could also say that another way is for Turkey to realize that this is the right way etc etc, but thats as good as hoping that Hitler would end the occupation of other countries if he was not forced.

So for you Turkey appears to be the biggest obstacle, why can you not accept that she will leave if all the other bricks fall into place and GCs and TCs start working together for a solution.

[Piratis]

And you keep asking me the same questions.

Where we should go is obvious: for a democratic country with human rights for all and no racist discriminations. Just like it exists in all other democratic countries.

The how is also clear: the Nazi Turkey to lose the power to enforce illegalities. I could also say that another way is for Turkey to realize that this is the right way etc etc, but thats as good as hoping that Hitler would end the occupation of other countries if he was not forced.

So for you Turkey appears to be the biggest obstacle, why can you not accept that she will leave if all the other bricks fall into place and GCs and TCs start working together for a solution.

Because I know better than that. Firstly TCs don't have the power to do anything without the approval of Turkey, and secondly the majority of TCs (including you) are perfectly aligned with the official Turkish policies for Cyprus.

[shahmaran]

And the RoC has offered us a better option when exactly?

All we hear is absolute utter BULLSHIT that dates 3500 years back, in conjunction with being blamed for racism (!!), my friend you are ridiculous!

If anyone didn't know better, you could almost convince them that the Turks brought all this up on to themselves with their "barbarian attitude"

[Piratis]

Well, I don't remember anybody inviting Turks to Cyprus. Turks did came to exploit Cyprus and Cypriots, and this is a fact, not "bullshit". And since then they were the ones that committed most of the crimes and illegalities, something that continues until today. Today is not 3500 years ago, i think you will agree with that.

So what you don't like about the facts that I give? That they don't go along with that tiny distorted part of history you keep giving as en excuse for your crimes and illegalities?

I said it before: Stop using the past as an excuse for crimes you commit today, and then I will also stop reminding you what doesn't fit your lame propaganda crap. What do you think?