Cyprus-Forum.com

[pitsilos]

pitsilos-

Well, to a logical reader it actually answered both of the questions, but apparently you’ve had quite a difficult time comprehending it. I have to assume that it is either from a lack of intelligence or a lack of desire to accept a build of analytical argument presented with a clear analogy, or perhaps a bit of both. You pathetically asked:

well if we were talking about slavery you example explains it very well, but we are not are we?

Of course we are not speaking specifically about slavery. The slavery was given as an example. An example to show you that if the whole world (and I have explained it to you previously that in Cyprus it is not the whole world anymore) recognizes something, that doesn’t mean that it is just, that doesn’t mean that it is right and that surely doesn’t mean it is acceptable. If a person in fact committed a murder and a courtroom full of jurors found him NOT guilty because of a lack of evidence, or misrepresentation of the offended party, or interests of the jurors or etc. would that man not be guilty of murder? What would it mean for the whole world recognized him as NOT guilty? The U.N. passes hundreds of resolutions about hundreds of communal conflicts around the world. Do you believe that every single one of them are CORRECT, that every single one of them are JUST, that every single one of them are NEUTRAL passed without the interests of superpowers? Are you so confident about each and every one them as to bet your life on it?

And please don’t bother me with another premature post, implying that you still haven’t understood the answer, because the answer to BOTH of your questions will not and can not get any clearer, direct and simplified than this.

i like your example, kindergarden stuff, how old did you say you were?

i already answered your pathetic first responce but in your usual stupidity you ignored it only to come back with another ludicrous reply.

here is the answer to your first responce. you wanna wait until the un overturns all these resolutions, but again, and i am repeating here, your one track mind does not allow you to comprehend that the un is not in the business of being part of ethnic cleansing. I also gave you other examples more relevant to the cyprus proble, syria and iraq, when the world showed you that it will never be part of the bullshit you subscribe.

now can you atleast, intelligently, and i use the term intelligently losely here, have another go in answering both questions, again.

the first question is, and according to you, if it was deemed an illegal state and a hijacked one at that, how come then to this very date is still recognized as the only legal state on the island and a fully fledged member of the EU?

the second question is, where was turkey all this time as all the resolutions were condemning her, i mean one after the other? you saying she wasn't getting legal sound advice and trying to defend her self? or she was not invited to the party at the un?

I think the bulk of the resolutions were against Turkey and not the tcs

ps. maybe 3rd time lucky? one can only hope

ps the questions above are 2 separate questions that need 2 separate answers. but then again, i should never underestimate the power of stupidity in people in large groups.

[zan]

I too have to go out now but ....Did you even try to read what I gave you Kikapu. What those PAST events show is what we should try to avoid again and why the GCs are so eager to get us to give up on Turkey. I feel that I once again must say "not the ordinary GC on the street but those in power" for fear of people misunderstanding. If you want to jump in with both feet and forget the lessons and the similarities that we have with the past in this day Kikapu you can. I would prefer to see things for what they are and avoid the train, that past experience has shown us, will undoubtedly knock us over. If you really want to forget the past then why ask for us to give up anything. Hey! The present is that we have a part of the island that we want and are happy to stay there. What is in the past that makes you unhappy about that. Is 1974 not the past. 1960...the year I was born, December a part of a republic. What happened.

Zan,

Respectfully, I will have to say, that was the past, and we are here today. I do not want to jump with both feet into any fire, but we also can't stay idle fore ever. We can not compare of yesteryear's with today. With the EU in the mix, I cannot see us getting screwed, in a Federal System. This will mean of course, walking away from the 1960 agreements and also from all guarantor powers, including Turkey. If we stay with the 1960 constitution, then there won't be a separate TC state, within Cyprus. other options are, is what we have today, for the foreseeable future, or is it NO FUTURE.

It is time to open a new chapter for the future of Cyprus.

And that is what I have been saying all along Kikapu, that we move forward. I bring up the past only when certain people do in order to blame the Turks and the TCs. They use the past to justify their demands for he return of land and the dissolving of the TRNC. I will then remind them that Turkey is not the only player in this and we the Turkish Cypriots are making claims as well. Read that piece I gave you. I don’t want you to look at it like the Holy Grail of events but as a guide. Pick between the lines and see the similarities with what is happening today. It actually made my hair stand on end. If I thought for one minute that the RoC was the place to be then I would not hesitate to endorse it but as a TC it is not. I will give you just one example of what we face and that is the recent rugby game between the RoC and Greece. I deliberately use the RoC rather than Cyprus because it is not Cyprus. Are you as a Turkish Cypriot prepared to stand at a tournament, whether it is as a player or a supporter, and have the Greek national anthem played in your name. Maybe you will answer yes but I sure as hell will not and neither will at least 70% of us. I happen to believe that that number is more like 100% but let us be conservative for arguments’ sake. Cyprus is not a Greek island and never will be, not the whole of it anyway. I have nothing against those that are Greek or Greek Cypriot being proud of their heritage but it is not my heritage. Don’t you think it is hypocritical that they then turn round and say I cannot and must not do the same with the Turkish anthem because I am a Cypriot. Does it not seem like a cynical game they are playing that says’ “don’t do as I do, do as I say”. What part of all of there antics am I supposed to trust? The fact that they are now in the EU? They say “come join us and then you can use your EU human rights if you are not happy”. Well I am not happy now so why should I accept a deal now when I am not satisfied with it. Lets put right the problems and then we can talk. Askimwos accused us of wanting recognition through the back door if we are allowed to trade through our own certification. Does he fully understand that if we trade through the RoC then that is the equivalent. I can understand what he is saying but he does not see things from my perspective. Trading through the RoC is the equivalent of turning everything over to them. We are saying that the TRNC does not exist and slowly everything will be turned over to them by default. Nothing will be resolved as far as our concerns go. If we wanted to do that why cause all the fuss in the first place. We have rights Kikapu and the EU does not cater for them in the text book sense. You want to move on. Well start the talks and tell those that you seem to support that they cannot have it all their own way. Denktas and Makarios were not far from signing an agreement with a 70-30 split and not this rubbish about 18%. We as TCs need reassurances and the RoC word is not enough and the EU charter is not enough with our history.

[Natty]

@ Pyro, Thanks for the enclave info Pyro, I figured that the Larnaca enclave must have been at the end of the finigoudes road as I believe that it was a predominately TC area, but I had no idea there were two and one was by Orphanides, there's another new thing I've learned about the history of the CypProb...

@Lena, Thaks Lena mou, your absolutely right as well we shouldn't generalize and we all suffered during that period, it'll be great when it comes to the day when we can say 'many Cypriots suffered' instead of 'Many TC's suffered this much' and 'many GC's suffered this much'. And your right that it has been too long and we should try and move one. As you say, our generation wasn't involved in the events of the past so hopefully we will find it easier to move on...My hope, like you, is that the next generation can finally live in a united happy Cyprus…

[Kikapu]

And that is what I have been saying all along Kikapu, that we move forward. I bring up the past only when certain people do in order to blame the Turks and the TCs. They use the past to justify their demands for he return of land and the dissolving of the TRNC. I will then remind them that Turkey is not the only player in this and we the Turkish Cypriots are making claims as well. Read that piece I gave you. I don’t want you to look at it like the Holy Grail of events but as a guide. Pick between the lines and see the similarities with what is happening today. It actually made my hair stand on end. If I thought for one minute that the RoC was the place to be then I would not hesitate to endorse it but as a TC it is not. I will give you just one example of what we face and that is the recent rugby game between the RoC and Greece. I deliberately use the RoC rather than Cyprus because it is not Cyprus. Are you as a Turkish Cypriot prepared to stand at a tournament, whether it is as a player or a supporter, and have the Greek national anthem played in your name. Maybe you will answer yes but I sure as hell will not and neither will at least 70% of us. I happen to believe that that number is more like 100% but let us be conservative for arguments’ sake. Cyprus is not a Greek island and never will be, not the whole of it anyway. I have nothing against those that are Greek or Greek Cypriot being proud of their heritage but it is not my heritage. Don’t you think it is hypocritical that they then turn round and say I cannot and must not do the same with the Turkish anthem because I am a Cypriot. Does it not seem like a cynical game they are playing that says’ “don’t do as I do, do as I say”. What part of all of there antics am I supposed to trust? The fact that they are now in the EU? They say “come join us and then you can use your EU human rights if you are not happy”. Well I am not happy now so why should I accept a deal now when I am not satisfied with it. Lets put right the problems and then we can talk. Askimwos accused us of wanting recognition through the back door if we are allowed to trade through our own certification. Does he fully understand that if we trade through the RoC then that is the equivalent. I can understand what he is saying but he does not see things from my perspective. Trading through the RoC is the equivalent of turning everything over to them. We are saying that the TRNC does not exist and slowly everything will be turned over to them by default. Nothing will be resolved as far as our concerns go. If we wanted to do that why cause all the fuss in the first place. We have rights Kikapu and the EU does not cater for them in the text book sense. You want to move on. Well start the talks and tell those that you seem to support that they cannot have it all their own way. Denktas and Makarios were not far from signing an agreement with a 70-30 split and not this rubbish about 18%. We as TCs need reassurances and the RoC word is not enough and the EU charter is not enough with our history.

Zan,

You make valid points in your post. For the record, I too would not have stood up, if the "GREEK" national anthem was played, instead of "CYPRIOT" one, during a rugby match involving Cyprus. In fact, I would hope, that all the GC's that would want to unite the island and the two communities, would not have stood either. I would also not stood up, if a "TURKISH" anthem was played, in any Cypriot matches either. If I was at a sports event, that Greece was participating, then I would stand up, as a sign of respect, as I would, with any other nations national anthem.

There are very few nations in the world today, particularly those countries in the "WEST", that can claim an outright "pure" nationality anymore. Nations identity and culture comes from it's people, that live there, who ever they may be. I'm not interested in going back 3500 years, or the 1571, or to 1959. I want us to go back no further than 1960. In 1960, we had a new nation born with the majority being GC's at 82% and the TC's at 18%, and few others. It is easy by the GC's to make the claim, that Cyprus is a "Greek island", because of the numbers, and their nationalism. This happens in the UK, USA, Australia and even in Turkey, where the majority make this meaningless claim, when in fact, what is more important, is what keeps these nations functioning a one "UNIT". So what is it that keeps all these multiethnic nationality countries functioning, is the LAW. "The Law of the land", that protects every one's right from their ethnicity to fair treatment in every corner of their day to day lives.

You live in the UK and so have I in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you feel like an minority there, where you don't feel like you have rights, or that the law does not protect you, because I sure don't, and neither I was in the States, and not even, here in Switzerland, because of the Laws, on the books. So, why should Cyprus be any different. That is why, it is important, to keep one's Cypriotism, before anything else, or else, we start to run into trouble. It is obvious that the 1960 Constitution did not work out well, because of the way it was written. I personally would like to walk away from that document all together, and start with a fresh chapter with a Federal System, where we can all have all our RIGHTS put on paper, such as the "Bill of Rights", that exists in the USA. Say all you want about the American Politics, but a Constitution that has lasted this long, has kept America together, through thick and thin, even during the Slavery and the Civil War, where individual battles would claim the lives of "AMERICANS" by the hundreds, if not thousands in a day, at a time. That's all we need Zan, a document for the protection of all Cypriots, and the "Will" of all, to see it carried out. We must do our part, as well as the GC's to do theirs, or else, we are doomed to become a True Cypriot Nation.

[zan]

double post:

[zan]

And that is what I have been saying all along Kikapu, that we move forward. I bring up the past only when certain people do in order to blame the Turks and the TCs. They use the past to justify their demands for he return of land and the dissolving of the TRNC. I will then remind them that Turkey is not the only player in this and we the Turkish Cypriots are making claims as well. Read that piece I gave you. I don’t want you to look at it like the Holy Grail of events but as a guide. Pick between the lines and see the similarities with what is happening today. It actually made my hair stand on end. If I thought for one minute that the RoC was the place to be then I would not hesitate to endorse it but as a TC it is not. I will give you just one example of what we face and that is the recent rugby game between the RoC and Greece. I deliberately use the RoC rather than Cyprus because it is not Cyprus. Are you as a Turkish Cypriot prepared to stand at a tournament, whether it is as a player or a supporter, and have the Greek national anthem played in your name. Maybe you will answer yes but I sure as hell will not and neither will at least 70% of us. I happen to believe that that number is more like 100% but let us be conservative for arguments’ sake. Cyprus is not a Greek island and never will be, not the whole of it anyway. I have nothing against those that are Greek or Greek Cypriot being proud of their heritage but it is not my heritage. Don’t you think it is hypocritical that they then turn round and say I cannot and must not do the same with the Turkish anthem because I am a Cypriot. Does it not seem like a cynical game they are playing that says’ “don’t do as I do, do as I say”. What part of all of there antics am I supposed to trust? The fact that they are now in the EU? They say “come join us and then you can use your EU human rights if you are not happy”. Well I am not happy now so why should I accept a deal now when I am not satisfied with it. Lets put right the problems and then we can talk. Askimwos accused us of wanting recognition through the back door if we are allowed to trade through our own certification. Does he fully understand that if we trade through the RoC then that is the equivalent. I can understand what he is saying but he does not see things from my perspective. Trading through the RoC is the equivalent of turning everything over to them. We are saying that the TRNC does not exist and slowly everything will be turned over to them by default. Nothing will be resolved as far as our concerns go. If we wanted to do that why cause all the fuss in the first place. We have rights Kikapu and the EU does not cater for them in the text book sense. You want to move on. Well start the talks and tell those that you seem to support that they cannot have it all their own way. Denktas and Makarios were not far from signing an agreement with a 70-30 split and not this rubbish about 18%. We as TCs need reassurances and the RoC word is not enough and the EU charter is not enough with our history.

Zan,

You make valid points in your post. For the record, I too would not have stood up, if the "GREEK" national anthem was played, instead of "CYPRIOT" one, during a rugby match involving Cyprus. In fact, I would hope, that all the GC's that would want to unite the island and the two communities, would not have stood either. I would also not stood up, if a "TURKISH" anthem was played, in any Cypriot matches either. If I was at a sports event, that Greece was participating, then I would stand up, as a sign of respect, as I would, with any other nations national anthem.

There are very few nations in the world today, particularly those countries in the "WEST", that can claim an outright "pure" nationality anymore. Nations identity and culture comes from it's people, that live there, who ever they may be. I'm not interested in going back 3500 years, or the 1571, or to 1959. I want us to go back no further than 1960. In 1960, we had a new nation born with the majority being GC's at 82% and the TC's at 18%, and few others. It is easy by the GC's to make the claim, that Cyprus is a "Greek island", because of the numbers, and their nationalism. This happens in the UK, USA, Australia and even in Turkey, where the majority make this meaningless claim, when in fact, what is more important, is what keeps these nations functioning a one "UNIT". So what is it that keeps all these multiethnic nationality countries functioning, is the LAW. "The Law of the land", that protects every one's right from their ethnicity to fair treatment in every corner of their day to day lives.

You live in the UK and so have I in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you feel like an minority there, where you don't feel like you have rights, or that the law does not protect you, because I sure don't, and neither I was in the States, and not even, here in Switzerland, because of the Laws, on the books. So, why should Cyprus be any different. That is why, it is important, to keep one's Cypriotism, before anything else, or else, we start to run into trouble. It is obvious that the 1960 Constitution did not work out well, because of the way it was written. I personally would like to walk away from that document all together, and start with a fresh chapter with a Federal System, where we can all have all our RIGHTS put on paper, such as the "Bill of Rights", that exists in the USA. Say all you want about the American Politics, but a Constitution that has lasted this long, has kept America together, through thick and thin, even during the Slavery and the Civil War, where individual battles would claim the lives of "AMERICANS" by the hundreds, if not thousands in a day, at a time. That's all we need Zan, a document for the protection of all Cypriots, and the "Will" of all, to see it carried out. We must do our part, as well as the GC's to do theirs, or else, we are doomed to become a True Cypriot Nation.

Getting back to our fears and very real fears of which any one can happen. Lets just take the rugby scenario happening when we are united. A majority decision. An EU democratic law that allows them to do that. Well, for me, just not standing up is not enough. This would outrage me so much that I would be willing to take up arms and fight this fascist move. With all my rights stripped from me I am now a Terrorist in my own country. I can be persecuted and the so-called legitimate government could call me what ever it wanted. Don't dismiss these as fantasies that will never happen because if that is the case then why are they doing it now. Why not show the way in how to be a real Cypriot.

[Kikapu]

Getting back to our fears and very real fears of which any one can happen. Lets just take the rugby scenario happening when we are united. A majority decision. An EU democratic law that allows them to do that. Well, for me, just not standing up is not enough. This would outrage me so much that I would be willing to take up arms and fight this fascist move. With all my rights stripped from me I am now a Terrorist in my own country. I can be persecuted and the so-called legitimate government could call me what ever it wanted. Don't dismiss these as fantasies that will never happen because if that is the case then why are they doing it now. Why not show the way in how to be a real Cypriot.

Zan,

I'm really sorry to hear, that you have so much fear embedded in you. Perhaps it is from your childhood experiences, whether those are the same fears you have today, I don't know.

This is why I believe, a Federal System with 2 States 1 Country solution, is the best way to go. The vast majority of the TC's and GC's will be living in their respective States, with freedom to move and live , any place one wants, with full protection of the Federal Government and Laws, to all citizens and immigrants. State laws will also exist, with their own State Constitution, which may have their own state flag, song, flower and even state anthem, if they wished to, but Federal Laws will overrule state laws, if it goes against the Federal Constitution, that tries to violate individual rights and protections.

There are many ways to form a solution and a lasting peace. It is the "will" that I question. As Franklin D. Roosevelt once said, " The only thing we have to FEAR, is the FEAR itself". We need the "will", to get over our fears.

[Kikapu]

I really wanted to read people's personal experiences during that time and get other peoples' opinions. Ironically actually I remember one of the first threads I read was one about people's experiences during the intercommunal fighting. I remember reading about Kikapus childhood experience and feeling very touched by it, and actually feeling very touched about his attitude, he'd been through sad times in Cyprus yet he just wanted to move on and try and find a fair solution to the Cyprus problem :

Natty,

And I was very touched by you, the first time you sang the song, "Somewhere over the Rainbow".

[Viewpoint]

I too have to go out now but ....Did you even try to read what I gave you Kikapu. What those PAST events show is what we should try to avoid again and why the GCs are so eager to get us to give up on Turkey. I feel that I once again must say "not the ordinary GC on the street but those in power" for fear of people misunderstanding. If you want to jump in with both feet and forget the lessons and the similarities that we have with the past in this day Kikapu you can. I would prefer to see things for what they are and avoid the train, that past experience has shown us, will undoubtedly knock us over. If you really want to forget the past then why ask for us to give up anything. Hey! The present is that we have a part of the island that we want and are happy to stay there. What is in the past that makes you unhappy about that. Is 1974 not the past. 1960...the year I was born, December a part of a republic. What happened.

Zan,

Respectfully, I will have to say, that was the past, and we are here today. I do not want to jump with both feet into any fire, but we also can't stay idle fore ever. We can not compare of yesteryear's with today. With the EU in the mix, I cannot see us getting screwed, in a Federal System. This will mean of course, walking away from the 1960 agreements and also from all guarantor powers, including Turkey. If we stay with the 1960 constitution, then there won't be a separate TC state, within Cyprus. other options are, is what we have today, for the foreseeable future, or is it NO FUTURE.

It is time to open a new chapter for the future of Cyprus.

And that is what I have been saying all along Kikapu, that we move forward. I bring up the past only when certain people do in order to blame the Turks and the TCs. They use the past to justify their demands for he return of land and the dissolving of the TRNC. I will then remind them that Turkey is not the only player in this and we the Turkish Cypriots are making claims as well. Read that piece I gave you. I don’t want you to look at it like the Holy Grail of events but as a guide. Pick between the lines and see the similarities with what is happening today. It actually made my hair stand on end. If I thought for one minute that the RoC was the place to be then I would not hesitate to endorse it but as a TC it is not. I will give you just one example of what we face and that is the recent rugby game between the RoC and Greece. I deliberately use the RoC rather than Cyprus because it is not Cyprus. Are you as a Turkish Cypriot prepared to stand at a tournament, whether it is as a player or a supporter, and have the Greek national anthem played in your name. Maybe you will answer yes but I sure as hell will not and neither will at least 70% of us. I happen to believe that that number is more like 100% but let us be conservative for arguments’ sake. Cyprus is not a Greek island and never will be, not the whole of it anyway. I have nothing against those that are Greek or Greek Cypriot being proud of their heritage but it is not my heritage. Don’t you think it is hypocritical that they then turn round and say I cannot and must not do the same with the Turkish anthem because I am a Cypriot. Does it not seem like a cynical game they are playing that says’ “don’t do as I do, do as I say”. What part of all of there antics am I supposed to trust? The fact that they are now in the EU? They say “come join us and then you can use your EU human rights if you are not happy”. Well I am not happy now so why should I accept a deal now when I am not satisfied with it. Lets put right the problems and then we can talk. Askimwos accused us of wanting recognition through the back door if we are allowed to trade through our own certification. Does he fully understand that if we trade through the RoC then that is the equivalent. I can understand what he is saying but he does not see things from my perspective. Trading through the RoC is the equivalent of turning everything over to them. We are saying that the TRNC does not exist and slowly everything will be turned over to them by default. Nothing will be resolved as far as our concerns go. If we wanted to do that why cause all the fuss in the first place. We have rights Kikapu and the EU does not cater for them in the text book sense. You want to move on. Well start the talks and tell those that you seem to support that they cannot have it all their own way. Denktas and Makarios were not far from signing an agreement with a 70-30 split and not this rubbish about 18%. We as TCs need reassurances and the RoC word is not enough and the EU charter is not enough with our history.

Excellent post zan agree with every word.

[Natty]

I really wanted to read people's personal experiences during that time and get other peoples' opinions. Ironically actually I remember one of the first threads I read was one about people's experiences during the intercommunal fighting. I remember reading about Kikapus childhood experience and feeling very touched by it, and actually feeling very touched about his attitude, he'd been through sad times in Cyprus yet he just wanted to move on and try and find a fair solution to the Cyprus problem :

Natty,

And I was very touched by you, the first time you sang the song, "Somewhere over the Rainbow".

Well I wanted to prove to you that you'd picked the right person, so I made it extra special..

You know that if you ever want me to sing it to you again, you only have to ask, and I'd be more than happy to give you another rendition!

And I also have to say that I was very touched that you actually chose me as your Dorothy in the first place…In fact I was really touched....

(We could do this all day long... )