Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekForumer]

Murataga is the name of one of the villages where 88 TCs were massacred and put into mass grave in 1974 by GCs.

Murataga, this is what I wrote in another thread about the Armenian Genocide.

If anyone needs the archives I can provide them with the information they need for a mere £100 a page

In August 1914, we know that the male Armenian population between the ages of 20 and 45 is drafted into the Turkish army.

In January 1915, we know that the 18-20 age group and 45-52 age groups are drafted. Also some of the 20-45 age group who managed to defer their service from the August 1914 draft are called up too.

I read somewhere that there was a total of more than 200,000 Armenian males drafted into the Turkish army. The vast majority of these Armenians draftees end up in the labour battalions (i.e. NON COMBATANTS ) .

Now, Turkey surrendered on 30th October 1918.

The questions I would like answered from the archives are.
1. After the Turkish surrender, when were the Armenian draftees discharged from the Turkish army ?
2. How many Armenian draftees were discharged from the Turkish army ?

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF ALL,
3. How did these 200,000(??) discharged draftees REACT when they discovered their wives and children and elderly parents died horrific deaths in the "relocation" ?

I imagine there would be MASSIVE rioting, strangling of Ottoman officials while trying to get information out of them, kicking out squatters who had taken over their houses and businesses, thousands of men going into the desert or other "relocation" centres to search for loved ones, holding Ottoman officials hostage or just killing them outright. 200,000(??) angry Armenian males !! MAYHEM !!

But that's only my imagination.

What do the Turkish archives say happened after these men were discharged ?

What do you think happened to these Armenian men ? Did they vanish into thin air ? 200,000 souls !!

[Viewpoint]

I know that Pyr, however the question was directed to zan and Vp.
Still no answer though, I wonder why!

Would you trade with your enemy? GCs used every trick in the book to stiffle TCs economic growth dejavue me thinks...somethings never change.

Do you have any independent sources of the Turks stopping trade between TCs and GCs or was it GC who would not do any trade with TCs just so as they would want a solution or to put them in even more difficult situation that they already were.

[Pyrpolizer]

My own father was trading with TCs behind closed doors VP. Usually livestock and always at night. I saw with my own eyes how many precautions the TCs were taking so nobody sees them . I remember one time we went to a TC at Ayia Eirini , and I remember how he waved my father to leave after he noticed someone saw us. So we sat there for a few minutes had our coffees and left. Because I was a kid I was usually offered Ayrani.The Tcs were very proud of this drink and I admit I could hardly wait to go with my father in the summer and have Ayrani at the TCs.

I was very impressed how most TC women were smoking back then (contrary to GC women). I was also impressed seeing TC shop owners selling cigaretes 1 by 1...

When our cattle caught some disease we had no opion but to sell them all and buy young animals. All young animals were from the same TC, as he had very healthy pieces. But like I said everything was done with too much caution and fear. There were too many fanatic TCs back then (the same goes for GCs of course) nobody felt safe.

[Pyrpolizer]

I know that Pyr, however the question was directed to zan and Vp.
Still no answer though, I wonder why!

Because they don't know Askimwos. All they know is fairy tales they planted into their brains. They think there were murders in the streets all the time the GCs were hunging them from ropes that's what they think.

It was NOTHING AT ALL like that. The same way the TCs go to Orphanides today the same way they were going to Athienitis (at Ermou Street) down Nicosia back then. The same way there is some insecurity feeling for a TC coming to the free areas and for us going to the occupied the same feeling was then. However we the GCs would never cross inside one of the dangerous enclaves e.g in Nicosia or larnaca. In kyrenia though there was no enclave, well there was a TC neighbourhoods but no real enclaves.

However although the worse that can happen to you today is some vandalizing in your car, the worse that could happen to you then is some fanatic draw a gun from nowhere and kill you.

Usually you could sense it if you were unwanted. Too many fanatics looking at you angrily... It happened to us many times. The TCs think it was only their life in danger back then. NOT AT ALL. We the GCs were terrified shit as well.

[Murataga]

Guys, I really don`t have the time to answer every post here. So will just answer askimwos`s since his is the one that speaks of my initial post. askimwos wrote:

Murataga, your posts looks like small essays, though you must have been told that in order to promote an argument and be respected you have to present both sides of the coin. Canningly you avoid that and this is the main reason you get all these counter-arguments coming towards you so don't complain.

I agree with you on this and accept your criticism with an open heart. I`ll keep this in mind in my future posts. Thank you.

You have said that no two countries in the world are similar cases and you chose to present the UK environment as an example

No, I didn`t present the UK environment as an example. I said the UK and the Australians have more in common than GCs and TCs, yet they are seperate two countries. The Spanish and the Venezuelans, Colombians and etc. have much in common but they are seperate countries. My point was common tradition and folklore does not necessarily mean that two communities should be ONE.

According to your logic, the Basces should be allowed a seperate state, the Scotish a seperate country and India should be split in 30 or so different countries.

Some yes and some no. I repeat: the history, political circumstances, the legal establishment and the will of the communiities is different in every case. Cyprus is very different aswell. Unlike any of these examples, Cyprus was built on a partnershep federal status. Consider it one-sided or not: in 1963 TCs legal rights in partnership was forcefully taken away from them. I will not repeat the rest to avoid alleviating further tension in our arguement. But the reality is that the circumstances are quite different. TCs never have been and are not a minority. Perhaps this is the root cause of our difference in this discussion. Plus, I never argued for a seperate state. I argued bor a bi-communal + bi-zonal partnership state. The constitution of the TRNC also allows for her to be transformed into a prtnership status in Cyprus, once a solution has been reached in the Cyprus problem.

Why don't they withdraw their troops and let the UN or an international force patrol and protect the TC then?

First and foremost, beacuse the TCs don`t want them to before an agreement has been reached in the Cyprus conflict with the GCs. Secondly, neither in Cyprus (for the TCs in this case) or anywhere else in the world has the UN been able to provide adequate security through force of arms to people it should protect, never. Thirdly, they had every right to come to the island to protect us and every right to be concerned when a strategic island 40 km off of their coast was getting Hellenized through an illegal coup. Not to mention that theGreek Army buildup had reached many thousands before they even stepped foot on the island. Fourthly, you speak of the Turkish military presence but you fail to mention the military buil-dup of the GCs which is by no means any less than what we hold in the North.

Does this justify the de facto division of an independent country?

That country was established not after the Peace Operation in 1974. It was established 9 years after when the talks with GCs prooved to be fruitless and GCs were not giving up declaring to the world that they were the legal representatives of the government of Cyprus in which no TC was present. We had to declare to the world that we existed and were not represented by them.

[Murataga]

pitsilos- you asked:

the first question here is, and according to you, if it was deemed an illegal state and a hijacked one at that, how come then to this very date is still recognized as the only legal state on the island and a fully fledged member of the EU?

Slavery, was recognized by the whole world, it was legal, it was practiced and it was promoted… until the 20th century. Simply because it served the interests of the countries that recognized it (including your fellow member EU states). Looking back at it, what does the recognition of slavery by states and governments mean to us today? So, the current resolutions do not make your case necessarily “just” especially given that you got them under the hijacked title of the “government of RoC” and in the absence of TCs. These resolutions are being reviewed by many today in the world. The Organization of the Islamic Conference with its 57 member countries (residing over 86% of world`s oil reserves) has already acknowledged TRNC as a constituent state in Cyprus. The presidents of Turkic states have presented goodwill letters to Turkey stating that they are prepared to cooperate to “full-measures” in Turkey`s struggle in Cyprus. The EU is quite tired with the GC administration`s spoiled whining, and is putting them under tremendous pressure to initiate direct trade with us. I won’t even start with Great Britain and he U.S. So, suggest you don`t get carried away

[zan]

Here is a question for you zan and Vp..

Weren't TC punished or even killed by TMT if they were found to trade and have any kind relation with their GC compatriots?

Please leave the usual crap aside and answer the question. Let the everyday TC know the whole truth and not just the one that suits your propaganda cause.

I know that Pyr, however the question was directed to zan and Vp.
Still no answer though, I wonder why!

Sorry to have to work all day but you can use that against me if it suits you. Can you also keep your dog quite as he is putting me off my dinner.


Now....Back to your question. Maybe I missed something in the posts before yours and have not got the time this evening to read them all.......What period are you talking about and a little detail will see me giving you a more substantial answer. Bare in mind please that all you read last night was directed at one particular person and anyone else that tries to deny and cover up actual events. Also be patient for your answer because my parents are coming over soon and I will have to come back to you later.

[askimwos]

Here is a question for you zan and Vp..

Weren't TC punished or even killed by TMT if they were found to trade and have any kind relation with their GC compatriots?

Please leave the usual crap aside and answer the question. Let the everyday TC know the whole truth and not just the one that suits your propaganda cause.

I know that Pyr, however the question was directed to zan and Vp.
Still no answer though, I wonder why!

Sorry to have to work all day but you can use that against me if it suits you. Can you also keep your dog quite as he is putting me off my dinner.


Now....Back to your question. Maybe I missed something in the posts before yours and have not got the time this evening to read them all.......What period are you talking about and a little detail will see me giving you a more substantial answer. Bare in mind please that all you read last night was directed at one particular person and anyone else that tries to deny and cover up actual events. Also be patient for your answer because my parents are coming over soon and I will have to come back to you later.

I am talking about the period 1964-1974. Maybe it is a good idea to ask your father as well in case you were young during that period.
Btw I am not trying to score any points here, I am jst trying to reveal the truth about the real incentives of the TMT and all those extremist elements in the TC community. I did the same for EOKA B and it still makes me sick everytime I find out that a pesron that I meet was in fact an EOKA B member.
Btw I would advise you not to be quick to dismiss what you have been asked as propaganda.

[Natty]

I know that Pyr, however the question was directed to zan and Vp.
Still no answer though, I wonder why!

Because they don't know Askimwos. All they know is fairy tales they planted into their brains. They think there were murders in the streets all the time the GCs were hunging them from ropes that's what they think.

It was NOTHING AT ALL like that. The same way the TCs go to Orphanides today the same way they were going to Athienitis (at Ermou Street) down Nicosia back then. The same way there is some insecurity feeling for a TC coming to the free areas and for us going to the occupied the same feeling was then. However we the GCs would never cross inside one of the dangerous enclaves e.g in Nicosia or larnaca. In kyrenia though there was no enclave, well there was a TC neighbourhoods but no real enclaves.

However although the worse that can happen to you today is some vandalizing in your car, the worse that could happen to you then is some fanatic draw a gun from nowhere and kill you.

Usually you could sense it if you were unwanted. Too many fanatics looking at you angrily... It happened to us many times. The TCs think it was only their life in danger back then. NOT AT ALL. We the GCs were terrified shit as well.

I could be wrong but I believe that another enclave was the old City of Famagusta. My father was in Cyprus as a young boy during that period and I asked him what he remembered, he said the he didn't recall there being much violence around where he lived and that most people just got on with their lives, TC and GC a like in that area (Near Varosi, Varosha), but he does remember being terrified that 'the Turks were coming' and that the one place he absolutely COULD NOT GO was in the Famagusta old town. Even when we went back to visit the village he grew up in he drove passed the old town before remembering that it wasn't an Enclave anymore. I know he felt silly because as he drove in he felt a bit nervous and strange being allowed to go somewhere that previously had been so dangerous. I think it's also important to note that his Grandfather had TC friends and they all stayed in their villages and his patch of land that he would tend was sandwiched between two of his TC friends patches of land but they stayed and tended their land throughout the whole period...

(But of course I understand that for others who lived where the violence was rife their experiences of that period were different, this is just my dads experience.. )

I also wandering whether anyone could tell me where the Larnaca Enclave was? Was it by any chance by the Mosque and Castle at the end of the Finigoudes? Thanks!

[T_C]

It goes both ways im sure but I think some GCs really did take the piss out of the TCs at the time and disrupt their lives. My mum has always remained pretty quiet but when I started telling her about this site and what people were saying she kind of flipped and told me about really bad experiences she had with GCs back in those days, specially on one incident at a road block in Cyprus where she was treated really inappropriately by the GCs that searched them. I didn't think my mum cared about what happened but I think the war and everything really effected her, it was like opening a can of worms when I was telling her the GCs didn't really do anything, she went mental on me. I trust my mum and I'm not trying to score points or trying to lay blame on any of you but I really do think that the TCs did suffer in the hands of GCs much more then what you would believe..

Also my uncle was telling me that just before Turkey came he was helping build those walls you build when you're at war, they was stacking bags of sand on top of each other and UN people were walking round slicing the bags saying that it wasn't right to build them because it meant they were getting ready for war but when the war did start they saw that they had let the GCs build them out of concrete on the other side... though I should add that my uncle is quite a nationalist so I don't know if I would believe his stories but definately believe my mums because she's lovely and not the type of person who would lie fullstop.