again the eyewitness says they were standing in the bath not covered crouching down. and there is no mention of covered up by sheets.
i do agree as old wounds open up, it stirs emotions up to the max. but we owe it to the victims so the truth be told and the psychos punished.
i find this a despicable act regardless who did it.
Nihat Ilhan Speaks Out about Bath Murders
by MR-from-NG » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:57 am
pitsilos wrote:again the eyewitness says they were standing in the bath not covered crouching down. and there is no mention of covered up by sheets.
i do agree as old wounds open up, it stirs emotions up to the max. but we owe it to the victims so the truth be told and the psychos punished.
i find this a despicable act regardless who did it.
Pitsilos,
There is not a chance on earth of anybody being charged and convicted for this despicable crime. As for the witnesses, they would have been confused and frightened to death. Their version of events cannot be reliable.
Had the crime been committed today, with advanced forensics and witness questioning techniques we may have got to the bottom of it. In 63 there would have been nobody experienced enough to conduct a proper and thorough investigation. That is why I say lets let it rest.
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by pitsilos » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:08 am
I disagree with you on this one mrfromng while you are right that noone can be charged, the eyewitness report can be questioned. because if you do not question it then we have nothing to go by with the exeption of always coming up. and in the eyewitness report there are a lot of inconsistencies.
If you look at the bathroom, its tiny and still 8 people seemed to hold refuge inside. and there is no mentioned by this eyewitness how many killers came into the bathroom, 1, 2, 3, 4, how many? in anycase it would have been overcrowded in the tiny bathroom to say the least and it would have been extremely difficult for anyone to survive. but the way the eyewitness describes the situation it makes someone believe either the wife and the daughters were the ones targetted or the shooters were blind as bats.
again I deplore such acts of murder but I would like to see killers get their just deserves.
ps. if the eyewitness report can not be reliable then we cannot put blame on anyone and say for sure the other side did it, and please i am not trying to deflect blame here, as i believe the killers should be hang by the balls.
At this moment the Greeks, who broke into the bathroom, emptied their guns on us again.
If you look at the bathroom, its tiny and still 8 people seemed to hold refuge inside. and there is no mentioned by this eyewitness how many killers came into the bathroom, 1, 2, 3, 4, how many? in anycase it would have been overcrowded in the tiny bathroom to say the least and it would have been extremely difficult for anyone to survive. but the way the eyewitness describes the situation it makes someone believe either the wife and the daughters were the ones targetted or the shooters were blind as bats.
again I deplore such acts of murder but I would like to see killers get their just deserves.
ps. if the eyewitness report can not be reliable then we cannot put blame on anyone and say for sure the other side did it, and please i am not trying to deflect blame here, as i believe the killers should be hang by the balls.
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by MR-from-NG » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:32 am
pitsilos wrote:I disagree with you on this one mrfromng while you are right that noone can be charged, the eyewitness report can be questioned. because if you do not question it then we have nothing to go by with the exeption of always coming up. and in the eyewitness report there are a lot of inconsistencies.At this moment the Greeks, who broke into the bathroom, emptied their guns on us again.
If you look at the bathroom, its tiny and still 8 people seemed to hold refuge inside. and there is no mentioned by this eyewitness how many killers came into the bathroom, 1, 2, 3, 4, how many? in anycase it would have been overcrowded in the tiny bathroom to say the least and it would have been extremely difficult for anyone to survive. but the way the eyewitness describes the situation it makes someone believe either the wife and the daughters were the ones targetted or the shooters were blind as bats.
again I deplore such acts of murder but I would like to see killers get their just deserves.
ps. if the eyewitness report can not be reliable then we cannot put blame on anyone and say for sure the other side did it, and please i am not trying to deflect blame here, as i believe the killers should be hang by the balls.
I just read the witnesses version of events. He sounds like a simple person. Putting sweets in his pocket and hiding under a bed, offering sweets to injured people is hardly a rationale thing to do.
He would definitely been scared and confused. The wife and kids of the major could have been standing in the bath, but the most natural thing to do would have been for the mother to grab the kids and lay in the bath as soon as she knew the killers were in the house, at that time if there were clothes within reach she would have covered herself and the kids.
Simple as the man sounds he clearly understood what the killers said "you want taksim ha?" so one thing for certain the killers were Greeks/GCs. This is what we can all be certain of. Small details whether from an eye witness or forensic analyses should be discounted. As I said the man sounds simple and I don't blame him for being scared and confused I would have shit myself and that would be nothing to be ashamed of under the circumstances.
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by pitsilos » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:05 am
mrfromng i am not accusing anyone here what I am saying is that the story as told doesn't hold water. the eyewitness report does not explain as to out of 8 people only 3 people were murdered in a small overcrowded bathroom. when they went to the touble of killiong a single woman in the toilet, but left survivors at their feet. you would think the killers if they were spraying bullets everywhere with intend to kill they would have made sure everyone was murdered. as in the case of the woman in the toilet. also there were no bullet holes on the water tank. you would think some bullets would have hit the tank with all this bullets flying everywhere.
what i am saying and this is what you should consider is just maybe the murders were done elsewhere in the house but for propaganda purposes they could have been moved in the bathroom for a more of an effect?
and if this is the case the murders themselves while been a crime against humanity, the propaganda is also as much of a crime against humanity, taking advantage of the situation. again if this is the case the murder scene was tainted and really we cannot assume anything.
again would it be a case of the wife and daughters being the actual targets and why, or the killers were blind as bats? I think this is a crucial question, considering the overcrowded bathroom with at leats 8 people and at least 2 killers. to which the man doesn't even say how many killers came in. also he mentions spraying the whole house with bullets.
also i would like to comment on the you want taksim ha. also this is not much of evidence as people at that time spoke each others language quite well. also the eyewitness says,
if guns were firing non stop as per the eyewitness accounts the noice would have been horrendous, wouldn't you agree? how could he hear what they said while locked in the bathroom and with all the noice from the guns? are we to assume the killers stopped firing all together for a while so someone shouted you want taksim ha and then they all resumed firing again?
as i said the story doesn't hold water while i really regret the killing of another human, actually i deplore such actions we need to be told the truth so people know that no side was a dove during our dark history.
ps. to this very day the same story is told over and over and noone ever questioned it and further more its used to brainwash young recruits like shahmaran admitted. so really the propaganda war is still alive and well.
its about time the propaganda wars stop so we can finally move on and live on the island not as a greek or a turk but as a cypriot.
what i am saying and this is what you should consider is just maybe the murders were done elsewhere in the house but for propaganda purposes they could have been moved in the bathroom for a more of an effect?
and if this is the case the murders themselves while been a crime against humanity, the propaganda is also as much of a crime against humanity, taking advantage of the situation. again if this is the case the murder scene was tainted and really we cannot assume anything.
again would it be a case of the wife and daughters being the actual targets and why, or the killers were blind as bats? I think this is a crucial question, considering the overcrowded bathroom with at leats 8 people and at least 2 killers. to which the man doesn't even say how many killers came in. also he mentions spraying the whole house with bullets.
also i would like to comment on the you want taksim ha. also this is not much of evidence as people at that time spoke each others language quite well. also the eyewitness says,
Suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open. Greeks had come in and were combing, every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets. During these moments I heard a voice saying, in Greek "You want Taksim eh!"
if guns were firing non stop as per the eyewitness accounts the noice would have been horrendous, wouldn't you agree? how could he hear what they said while locked in the bathroom and with all the noice from the guns? are we to assume the killers stopped firing all together for a while so someone shouted you want taksim ha and then they all resumed firing again?
as i said the story doesn't hold water while i really regret the killing of another human, actually i deplore such actions we need to be told the truth so people know that no side was a dove during our dark history.
ps. to this very day the same story is told over and over and noone ever questioned it and further more its used to brainwash young recruits like shahmaran admitted. so really the propaganda war is still alive and well.
its about time the propaganda wars stop so we can finally move on and live on the island not as a greek or a turk but as a cypriot.
Last edited by pitsilos on Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by T_C » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:15 am
That to one side people keep forgetting this mans wife also died in the house!
Why would he lie? You guys are more concerned about making it look like "anyone could of done it" then you are at the fact these poor people were killed!
Come on now. If the TMT had anything to do with this then it would of been only to tell the man what he had to say to gain more impact, that I see as likely. But it is highly unlikely that Turks would of killed a whole family (on a night when GCs held people hostage at gunpoint in the same area), killed a mother, her kids, shot a few more and killed the witnesses wife too. I mean come on, it is ludacris to even try and say "we don't know who did it".
If it was the Turks do you really think the Turks would of left a witness alive? If it was the Turks then you can be sure that they would of incenerated every living thing in sight. They wouldn't of needed a witness. What about all the other witnesses who were shouting "is no one here to help us" wouldn't those people of recognised if the Turks were the culprits?
What askimwos quoted sounds like a more possible version of events even though it may be slightly "diluted" at least they owned up to "possibly" doing it, which in my opinion means they pretty much did otherwise they would of denied it flat out.
Why would he lie? You guys are more concerned about making it look like "anyone could of done it" then you are at the fact these poor people were killed!
Come on now. If the TMT had anything to do with this then it would of been only to tell the man what he had to say to gain more impact, that I see as likely. But it is highly unlikely that Turks would of killed a whole family (on a night when GCs held people hostage at gunpoint in the same area), killed a mother, her kids, shot a few more and killed the witnesses wife too. I mean come on, it is ludacris to even try and say "we don't know who did it".
If it was the Turks do you really think the Turks would of left a witness alive? If it was the Turks then you can be sure that they would of incenerated every living thing in sight. They wouldn't of needed a witness. What about all the other witnesses who were shouting "is no one here to help us" wouldn't those people of recognised if the Turks were the culprits?
What askimwos quoted sounds like a more possible version of events even though it may be slightly "diluted" at least they owned up to "possibly" doing it, which in my opinion means they pretty much did otherwise they would of denied it flat out.
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by BirKibrisli » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:53 am
I am not sure about Kikapu,but it looks like myself,Mrfromng,and Zan were within a few kilometres of the incident as it happened. Zan was the closest.I missed the bit where he talked about visiting the house,so I can't say why he was there.But please try to remember these were very unusual and terrfying times for all of us,as we were convinced the GCs were about to massacre the lot of us,wherever we were.
I told earlier elsewhere how my father gave me a hand grenade,and told me to blow myself and my mother and sisters up if the GCs came to the door,before he came back from fighting at the walls...Please try to imagine the state of terror we were all in during those terrible weeks...
Zan...My father was one of the area commanders,and in his unit they had one brengun,a few sten guns,some granades and pistols ,and the rest had shotguns as you say.We were not as poorly armed as you recall.
Of course I don't know what the defenders at Kumsal had,or even if there were any defenders there.And I think it is pointless and probably impossible to try to work out how events unfolded on that tragic night at Kumsal.But going on what we know for sure here is what I believe happened:
150 GC irregulars under ovreall command of a Greek Officer,went to clear Kumsal of TCs.They had no idea what to expect,and was hence very tense and apprehensive. The Unit which came to the Ilhan house probably contained some die hard EOKA gunmen who lost the plot when they realised this was the house of a Turkish officer.There would have been photos of Mr Ilhan in army uniform on the walls.They started indiscriminate shooting whatever moved around the house,then panicked and run away,probably thinking that they would be in trouble with their own commander,especially if that was Tasos Mavrou and what we hear about him being a very principles and honourable person is true.
Remeber that hundreds of TCs were taken prisoner at Kumsal that night,and all were released unharmed a few days later.
So when TMT found out they saw this as a priceless opportunity for propaganda,and for getting the Turkish Army contingent,which was still at their barracks and uninvolved,involved as soon as possible,and even perhaps hoping that would drag Turkey into the action as well.Turkey at the time was run by Ismet Inonu who was a dove and not a hawke...
The master manipulator,journalist Omer Sami Cosar was sent in to do his work,and he himself is on the record for saying that he did arrange the bath scene for maximum propaganda effect...
As I said earlier,I do not believe we should be looking for excuses or blame appostioning in this terrible crime against humanity.Cypriots,people born and raised in our homeland were responsible for this dstardly act and the ensuing propaganda war,and for that we have all been diminished and wounded as human beings.
But unlike MR I believe we should be able to talk about this in a civilised and constructive way,and empathise with each other,in order to build understanding and trust.I know it is difficult and I am trying to hold back my tears as I write this,but the way forward is not via sweeping unpleasant things under the carpet...
Now excuse we while I go and eat to calm my nerves...
I told earlier elsewhere how my father gave me a hand grenade,and told me to blow myself and my mother and sisters up if the GCs came to the door,before he came back from fighting at the walls...Please try to imagine the state of terror we were all in during those terrible weeks...
Zan...My father was one of the area commanders,and in his unit they had one brengun,a few sten guns,some granades and pistols ,and the rest had shotguns as you say.We were not as poorly armed as you recall.
Of course I don't know what the defenders at Kumsal had,or even if there were any defenders there.And I think it is pointless and probably impossible to try to work out how events unfolded on that tragic night at Kumsal.But going on what we know for sure here is what I believe happened:
150 GC irregulars under ovreall command of a Greek Officer,went to clear Kumsal of TCs.They had no idea what to expect,and was hence very tense and apprehensive. The Unit which came to the Ilhan house probably contained some die hard EOKA gunmen who lost the plot when they realised this was the house of a Turkish officer.There would have been photos of Mr Ilhan in army uniform on the walls.They started indiscriminate shooting whatever moved around the house,then panicked and run away,probably thinking that they would be in trouble with their own commander,especially if that was Tasos Mavrou and what we hear about him being a very principles and honourable person is true.
Remeber that hundreds of TCs were taken prisoner at Kumsal that night,and all were released unharmed a few days later.
So when TMT found out they saw this as a priceless opportunity for propaganda,and for getting the Turkish Army contingent,which was still at their barracks and uninvolved,involved as soon as possible,and even perhaps hoping that would drag Turkey into the action as well.Turkey at the time was run by Ismet Inonu who was a dove and not a hawke...
The master manipulator,journalist Omer Sami Cosar was sent in to do his work,and he himself is on the record for saying that he did arrange the bath scene for maximum propaganda effect...
As I said earlier,I do not believe we should be looking for excuses or blame appostioning in this terrible crime against humanity.Cypriots,people born and raised in our homeland were responsible for this dstardly act and the ensuing propaganda war,and for that we have all been diminished and wounded as human beings.
But unlike MR I believe we should be able to talk about this in a civilised and constructive way,and empathise with each other,in order to build understanding and trust.I know it is difficult and I am trying to hold back my tears as I write this,but the way forward is not via sweeping unpleasant things under the carpet...
Now excuse we while I go and eat to calm my nerves...
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by Viewpoint » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:15 am
Shall we open a thread and question whether GC women were really raped or was it just their imagination, how do we know it wasn't GC soldiers??? was the sperm tested? any photo graphic evidence we can examine?? does where and in what position the claimed rape was carried out change the fact that it was rape?? Lets bring all this out into the open and talk about it so that we do not leave any doubts as to who exactly did what. Like the GCs have doubts about the bath murders being perpetrated by GCs I to have to express my doubts about any GC woman or girl for that matter being raped by Turkish soldiers, must be an issue used by the GC propaganda machine to show the Turkish Army in the worst possible light don't your think?
What shall we call the thread?
GC women raped by their own soldiers???
No GC woman was raped by Turkish Soldiers???
Rape claims are GC Propaganda.
What shall we call the thread?
GC women raped by their own soldiers???
No GC woman was raped by Turkish Soldiers???
Rape claims are GC Propaganda.
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