Cyprus-Forum.com

[karma]

not anythingbut this spesific thing is a bit questionable I think.

[Kikapu]

So, the question is, is not so much who killed these poor people, but who stood to gain on the "shock effect" propaganda.

Kikapu what are you trying to say? Are you being serious?

So the question is not so much who made the GCs refugees but who stood to gain on the "shock effect" of showing people pictures of children holding pictures of their missing fathers???

You call a picture of murdered TC's "propaganda"??

Why is it that everything thats Turkish or TC is "propaganda", anything done to TCs is "questionable"?

This is getting ridiculous

Turkish_Cypriot,

I think you have missed my whole point.

I'm only referring to this one picture " bathroom murders", and nothing else.

Can you point out to me, any other picture from Cyprus Conflicts since 1960, that has more "shock effect" than this one.

[polis]

thanks bir. i found it

just very quickly and i will look at this picture more closely tommorow, what strikes me, if automatic weapons were used you would expect a lot of bullet holes on the wall and especially on the water tank, which none appear. you see blood on the tank but no holes. if the automatic weapons were fired at point blank as people said the bullets would have penetrated and exited at the same time and they would have marked the walls and the tank.

you can see a some bullet holes on the bath tab but thats all...

as i said i will look at it tommorow again to confirm this.

thanks TC if you do find it please post the link. or maybe VP can take some pictures and post them

I was too late,I see.
Pitsilo,I think it is pretty well established that they were not killed in the bath,but perhaps in the bathroom or elsewhere in the house.
The first journalist on the scene,Omer Sami Cosar,is believed to have placed the bodies in the bath and arranged them for maximum efect... :(

The problem of the forum's Turkish Cypriot propagandists is that the TMT, by tampering with the 'crime scene' and then forcing the only eye witness to make a public statement, to adapt his account of the events so as to fit the picture of the victims in the bathroom, completely destroyed the credibility of any the evidence that was available that could shed proper light on the events. The result is that those who want to use the 'bathroom massacre' as a propaganda tool, have to rely on a photo that is obviously staged and an 'eye witness account' that is absurd. And then Mr Ilhan complains of the circulation of rumors that he is the one who carried out the murders.

[zan]

Perhaps a little bit of truth from my mums mouth. You guys completly forget that there were people alive at the time and stories from that time might shed some light on what really went on.


This was past around at the time and must be considered more accurate than versions of a later date.


The people killed went into the house to hide. The children and the mother covered themselves with dirty washing in the bath. After other people were shot elsewhere the gunmen entered the bathroom and started shooting. They stopped shooting and heard a child crying under the washing and opened fire again. This done, they ran away. Account of an old woman that I did not want to question further because she was getting upset. MACHINE GUN FIRE.

[MR-from-NG]

Perhaps a little bit of truth from my mums mouth. You guys completly forget that there were people alive at the time and stories from that time might shed some light on what really went on.


This was past around at the time and must be considered more accurate than versions of a later date.


The people killed went into the house to hide. The children and the mother covered themselves with dirty washing in the bath. After other people were shot elsewhere the gunmen entered the bathroom and started shooting. They stopped shooting and heard a child crying under the washing and opened fire again. This done, they ran away. Account of an old woman that I did not want to question further because she was getting upset. MACHINE GUN FIRE.

Zan,

I heard a similar story from my elders at the time. My house in Ortakoy is about a mile from this house.

The argument that there are no bullet holes on the bath is a stupid one. The gunman stood over them (the clothes) and emptied out the magazine from a 90 degree angle. For our GC cousins to try and cover up this despicable act is an insult to our intelligence and rubbing salt to our wounds.

This does not help build confidence between us to say the least.

[zan]

Perhaps a little bit of truth from my mums mouth. You guys completly forget that there were people alive at the time and stories from that time might shed some light on what really went on.


This was past around at the time and must be considered more accurate than versions of a later date.


The people killed went into the house to hide. The children and the mother covered themselves with dirty washing in the bath. After other people were shot elsewhere the gunmen entered the bathroom and started shooting. They stopped shooting and heard a child crying under the washing and opened fire again. This done, they ran away. Account of an old woman that I did not want to question further because she was getting upset. MACHINE GUN FIRE.

Zan,

I heard a similar story from my elders at the time. My house in Ortakoy is about a mile from this house.

The argument that there are no bullet holes on the bath is a stupid one. The gunman stood over them (the clothes) and emptied out the magazine from a 90 degree angle. For our GC cousins to try and cover up this despicable act is an insult to our intelligence and rubbing salt to our wounds.

This does not help build confidence between us to say the least.

This whole thing is really pissing me off big time. The Greeks and the GCs have used this tactic a hundred times to confuse the issue. It is an old tactic that they have conned the world with time and time again. The point that there is every possibility that it happened does not even enter certain peoples minds in there urgency to clear themselves as a people of any wrong doings. You and I know the fear and the mentality of the time because even though we were young we heard the gunfire and the screams. My mum also told me a very surreal story of this time when as if nothing was happening, they sat outside their houses the following couple of days, when they knew that the Greeks had been beaten back from where we lived in the poor sector of Lefkosa, as they did before the shootings and laughed and joked as they listened to the gunfire. They would shout.......Turkish! When they heard single shots and, Greek! When they heard machine gun fire. What a place to be

[MR-from-NG]

Perhaps a little bit of truth from my mums mouth. You guys completly forget that there were people alive at the time and stories from that time might shed some light on what really went on.


This was past around at the time and must be considered more accurate than versions of a later date.


The people killed went into the house to hide. The children and the mother covered themselves with dirty washing in the bath. After other people were shot elsewhere the gunmen entered the bathroom and started shooting. They stopped shooting and heard a child crying under the washing and opened fire again. This done, they ran away. Account of an old woman that I did not want to question further because she was getting upset. MACHINE GUN FIRE.

Zan,

I heard a similar story from my elders at the time. My house in Ortakoy is about a mile from this house.

The argument that there are no bullet holes on the bath is a stupid one. The gunman stood over them (the clothes) and emptied out the magazine from a 90 degree angle. For our GC cousins to try and cover up this despicable act is an insult to our intelligence and rubbing salt to our wounds.

This does not help build confidence between us to say the least.

This whole thing is really pissing me off big time. The Greeks and the GCs have used this tactic a hundred times to confuse the issue. It is an old tactic that they have conned the world with time and time again. The point that there is every possibility that it happened does not even enter certain peoples minds in there urgency to clear themselves as a people of any wrong doings. You and I know the fear and the mentality of the time because even though we were young we heard the gunfire and the screams. My mum also told me a very surreal story of this time when as if nothing was happening, they sat outside their houses the following couple of days, when they knew that the Greeks had been beaten back from where we lived in the poor sector of Lefkosa, as they did before the shootings and laughed and joked as they listened to the gunfire. They would shout.......Turkish! When they heard single shots and, Greek! When they heard machine gun fire. What a place to be

Couldn't agree with you more Zan. I cant help feeling their silly excuses are as bad if not worst than the crime itself.

Shame on you boys.

[askimwos]

This goes for some other people as well...not just vp:

VP if questions are not asked the the truth is never revealed. This is a rumour that has been going on among the TC community as well so people need to find out. If you cared enough to read the article that I translated and posted in the previous page of this thread then you would have noticed that the people that carried out the operations that night say that it is possible that the family may have been killed by GCs who entered the house as in at least a case some fired on locked doors. Here is a GC that took the time to translate that long article that may shed some light to the incident. There are a number of GCs that have said that the bath tub incidence is not even close to the massarcre that happened in Tohni by EOKA B thugs and you choose to highlight the fact that some GCs and TCs have some reservations about what really happened that night.
I am not surprised that in your effort to promote your propaganda about GCs denying everything and therefore cannot be trusted you selectively choose to neglect the comments made by GCs about Tohni and the official apology of the president of the RoC parliament towards TCs about the events of 1963-68.
Could you tell me just one time that the TC leadership have officialy accepted that TMT has committed similar attrocities against GCs and apologised on behalf of the TC community? Well I don't think that the TC elite have the balls to accept such a thing as they very well know that they will find themselves out of office or even killed by some "angry" individual in the same way that Kutlu Atali and so many others have been executed in the past.
I also believe that no matter what GCs do, no matter how many apologies are given and no matter how constructive they may be towards reconciliation YOU will find a way, by selectively choosing parts of what is said by even just one GC, to promote your agenda of hatred and partition.
Welcome back Vp...but be prepared to have people exposing your tactics...

Here is a section of the article translated from Politis newspaper zan...obviously you did not care to read it:

Savvas Sielis
Not only Tasos Markou hadn't had any involvement in the Bath Tub massarcre against the wife and the 3 children of the Turkish officer Nihat Ilhan, but he in fact protected civilian TCs who have been captured on the 24th December 1963. "The bath tub massarcre did not happen in the bathroom! And it was not carried out by Tasos Markou. I was always by the side of Tasos Markou that night and I went everywhere he went that night. After that I was wounded and I was taken to the hospital" Savvas Sielis told Politis that he was later informed about the bath tub incident: "one of the teams that took part in the operation that night entered the house firing their weapons, they pushed a door and found resistance by someone that was behind the door. They then fired at the door and they then left the house. The bodies were propably moved in the bath tub by the Turks in order to take the well known pictures. One thing is for sure though, it was clearly not a cold blood execution" me Sielis said.

Ishan Ali
Savvas Sielis also noted that: "Tasos Markou has absolutely no link with the incidence. In fact he was very strict with his soldiers, especially on issues of mistreating unarmed citizens. That day we captured a lot of prisoners and there wasn't even a nose bleeding. One of the prisoners was the daughter of Ishan Ali who after some time he contacted me and thanked me for helping his daughter. Tasos Markou was a great man and officer, and would never sent his soldiers to places that he wouldn't go himself, he was a man of principles and he would not allow his soldiers to do things that he wouldn't do. Both the unarmed citizens and the prisoners were for him and matter of principles and he wouldn't allow anybody to touch them. Something that most people don't know is that Makarios asked hime to be commander in chief of the Presidential Guard (formed to fight EOKA B) but he refused........"

The above is part of an interview by a person that took part in that operation. It does not offer any certainty about what actually happend but he did accept that this may well have happened by the GCs that carried that operation, although in a different way than the official TMT version of events.

[pitsilos]

Turkish Cypriot wrote

This is the survivors story:

Mr. Hasan Yusuf Gudum, an eye witness, who himself was wounded during the same terrible event, relates the sad incident as follows :
"On the night of the 24th of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat ilhan. Our neighbours Mrs. Ayshe of Mora, her daughter lshin and Mrs. Ayshe's sister Novber were also with us. We were all having supper. All of a sudden bullets from the Pedieos River direction started to riddle the house, sounding like heavy rain. Thinking that the dining-room where we were sitting was dangerous, we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer. Altogether we were nine persons. We all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet. We waited in fear. Mrs. ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her arms. Suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open. Greeks had come in and were combing, every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets. During these moments I heard a voice saying, in Greek "You want Taksim eh!" and then bullets started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. ilhan and her three children fell into the bath. They were shot. At this moment the Greeks, who broke into the bathroom, emptied their guns on us again. I heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.
I remained unconscious for 2 or 3 hours, and later, I saw Mrs. Ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath. I and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded. But what had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to the toilet, where, in the doorway, I saw her body. She was brutally murdered.
In the street amist the sound of shots I heard voices crying "Help, help. Is there no one to save us?" I became terrified. I thought that if the Greeks came again and found that I was not dead they would kill me. So I ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double-bed.
An hour passed by. In the distance I could still hear shots. My mouth was dry, so I came out from under the bed and drank some water. Then I put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom, which was exactly as I had left it an hour ago. There I offered sweets to Mrs. Ayshe her daughter and Mrs. Novber who were all wounded.
We waited in the bathroom until 5 o'clock in the morning. I thought morning would never come. We were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital. Finally, as we could walk, Mrs. Novber and 1, went out into the street hoping to find help and walked as far as Koshklu Chiftlik. There, we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on. When I regained consciousness I said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought Mrs. Ayshe and her daughter.
After staying three days in the hospital I was sent by plane to Ankara for further treatment. There I have had four months treatment but still I cannot use my arm. On my return to Cyprus, Greeks arrested me at the Airport.
All related to you above, I told the Greeks during my detention. They then released me. - - "

Perhaps a little bit of truth from my mums mouth. You guys completly forget that there were people alive at the time and stories from that time might shed some light on what really went on.


This was past around at the time and must be considered more accurate than versions of a later date.


The people killed went into the house to hide. The children and the mother covered themselves with dirty washing in the bath. After other people were shot elsewhere the gunmen entered the bathroom and started shooting. They stopped shooting and heard a child crying under the washing and opened fire again. This done, they ran away. Account of an old woman that I did not want to question further because she was getting upset. MACHINE GUN FIRE.

Zan,

I heard a similar story from my elders at the time. My house in Ortakoy is about a mile from this house.

The argument that there are no bullet holes on the bath is a stupid one. The gunman stood over them (the clothes) and emptied out the magazine from a 90 degree angle. For our GC cousins to try and cover up this despicable act is an insult to our intelligence and rubbing salt to our wounds.

This does not help build confidence between us to say the least.

mrfromng your description of the events don't match the events that turkish cypriot posted.

you say they were covered on the ground with sheets, while TC says they were standing in the bath and fell when shot. which one is the correct one?

the eye witness says he was seriously wounded, then he runs to the toilet and then runs back to the house and hides under the bed. at this stage you gotta question the seriously wounded bit.

and then after 5 hrs or so he says "Finally, as we could walk", again what do you call seriously wounded?

I could go on and on picking holes, but you and I know this isn't gonna really highlight as to who the psychos are. but the story doesn't hold a lot of water as it has been told.

[MR-from-NG]

Turkish Cypriot wrote

This is the survivors story:

Mr. Hasan Yusuf Gudum, an eye witness, who himself was wounded during the same terrible event, relates the sad incident as follows :
"On the night of the 24th of December, 1963 my wife Feride Hasan and I were paying a visit to the family of Major Dr. Nihat ilhan. Our neighbours Mrs. Ayshe of Mora, her daughter lshin and Mrs. Ayshe's sister Novber were also with us. We were all having supper. All of a sudden bullets from the Pedieos River direction started to riddle the house, sounding like heavy rain. Thinking that the dining-room where we were sitting was dangerous, we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer. Altogether we were nine persons. We all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet. We waited in fear. Mrs. ilhan the wife of Major Doctor, was standing in the bath with her three children Murat, Kutsi and Hakan in her arms. Suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open. Greeks had come in and were combing, every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets. During these moments I heard a voice saying, in Greek "You want Taksim eh!" and then bullets started flying in the bathroom. Mrs. ilhan and her three children fell into the bath. They were shot. At this moment the Greeks, who broke into the bathroom, emptied their guns on us again. I heard one of the Major's children moan, then I fainted.
I remained unconscious for 2 or 3 hours, and later, I saw Mrs. Ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath. I and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded. But what had happened to my wife? Then I remembered and immediately ran to the toilet, where, in the doorway, I saw her body. She was brutally murdered.
In the street amist the sound of shots I heard voices crying "Help, help. Is there no one to save us?" I became terrified. I thought that if the Greeks came again and found that I was not dead they would kill me. So I ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double-bed.
An hour passed by. In the distance I could still hear shots. My mouth was dry, so I came out from under the bed and drank some water. Then I put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom, which was exactly as I had left it an hour ago. There I offered sweets to Mrs. Ayshe her daughter and Mrs. Novber who were all wounded.
We waited in the bathroom until 5 o'clock in the morning. I thought morning would never come. We were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital. Finally, as we could walk, Mrs. Novber and 1, went out into the street hoping to find help and walked as far as Koshklu Chiftlik. There, we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on. When I regained consciousness I said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought Mrs. Ayshe and her daughter.
After staying three days in the hospital I was sent by plane to Ankara for further treatment. There I have had four months treatment but still I cannot use my arm. On my return to Cyprus, Greeks arrested me at the Airport.
All related to you above, I told the Greeks during my detention. They then released me. - - "

Perhaps a little bit of truth from my mums mouth. You guys completly forget that there were people alive at the time and stories from that time might shed some light on what really went on.


This was past around at the time and must be considered more accurate than versions of a later date.


The people killed went into the house to hide. The children and the mother covered themselves with dirty washing in the bath. After other people were shot elsewhere the gunmen entered the bathroom and started shooting. They stopped shooting and heard a child crying under the washing and opened fire again. This done, they ran away. Account of an old woman that I did not want to question further because she was getting upset. MACHINE GUN FIRE.

Zan,

I heard a similar story from my elders at the time. My house in Ortakoy is about a mile from this house.

The argument that there are no bullet holes on the bath is a stupid one. The gunman stood over them (the clothes) and emptied out the magazine from a 90 degree angle. For our GC cousins to try and cover up this despicable act is an insult to our intelligence and rubbing salt to our wounds.

This does not help build confidence between us to say the least.

mrfromng your description of the events don't match the events that turkish cypriot posted.

you say they were covered on the ground with sheets, while TC says they were standing in the bath and fell when shot. which one is the correct one?

the eye witness says he was seriously wounded, then he runs to the toilet and then runs back to the house and hides under the bed. at this stage you gotta question the seriously wounded bit.

and then after 5 hrs or so he says "Finally, as we could walk", again what do you call seriously wounded?

I could go on and on picking holes, but you and I know this isn't gonna really highlight as to who the psychos are. but the story doesn't hold a lot of water as it has been told.

Sorry Pitsilos you have misunderstood. I did not say they were on the floor. I meant to say they were in the bath and covered themselves with clothes. The gunman stood over the clothes knowing there were people underneath them and fired from a 90 degree angle. I visited this house long time ago and am almost sure there are bullet holes in the bottom of the bath tub.

This whole thing would have been a lot better if it had been left to rest. Some comments from our GC cousins is very insensitive to say the least.

In fact I wish the thread was locked by Lana.