Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Zan, from the whole discussion in this forum it is now obvious that the majority of the GC members have accepted that there have been mistakes in the past from our side and indeed very serious ones. I believe that the GC community has matured after the experience of the past 60 years and I am sure that you will not find more than 3% supporting enosis. The preseident of the RoC parliament himself in a speech in the parliament a couple of years ago asked expressed a big apology to the TCs and accepted what blame the GC community is responsible for for the events of 1963-74.

What is obvious here is that this has not happened in the TC community and no official apology has ever been expressed by the TC leaders towards the GC community which suffered equally from the likes of TMT and the Turkish invation and occupation. I am amazed by you zan because you are turning into a new vp yourself and you don't try any more for reconciliation but rather use your energy to score points by resenting some times to shallow arguments. I don't recall you doing this in the past.

It's because he has the ability to go unnoticed. It took me some time to realize he is much worse than VP.

Man, Zan is a declared partitionist. Go back a couple of weeks and see it for yourself. Atca site is his temple.

He even talked for his exciting new "nation" that will comprise of only TC ultra nationalists + settlers!!

[Piratis]

Zan the problem in the 1960 constitution were its undemocratic provisions that were forced on Cypriots by outsiders. Read the above about the pillars of democracy. Does it talk about veto rights of minorities (to be used to bring the who country in stalemates)
And after the semi-independence that we were given, both GCs and TCs were the aggressors. So don't insist on your one sided stories about that period.

A federation is a democracy too. Can you say that federal states like Belgium, USA, Switzerland are not democracies?

two points first:
1) Switzerland is a confederation (http://www.admin.ch).
2) The above quote about democracy was taken from USA government (which is a federation).

No, i didn't say that federations can not be democratic. Federations still adhere to all the above principles. The states are geographical regions of the country and exist because they were initially separate and then they joined together (except if you can find me another example of a unitary state that was violently broken into federation without democratic means). In federation all citizens of the country are equal, and they are free to become residents of any state they want. They are is not discrimination based on race or ethnic background in federations (or any other democratic country). Such kind of discrimination existed only is South Africa of apartheid.

A federation in Cyprus is not something right or just. Why should an area which is the homeland of 200.000 GCs and just 50.000 TCs be named Turkish? (state/country or whatever). We accepted that in Cyprus a federation is a possibility, as a huge compromise from our part because we were forced to, but it should still be a real federation, like the USA, and such federations still adhere to the democratic principles.

[zan]

Zan, from the whole discussion in this forum it is now obvious that the majority of the GC members have accepted that there have been mistakes in the past from our side and indeed very serious ones. I believe that the GC community has matured after the experience of the past 60 years and I am sure that you will not find more than 3% supporting enosis. The preseident of the RoC parliament himself in a speech in the parliament a couple of years ago asked expressed a big apology to the TCs and accepted what blame the GC community is responsible for for the events of 1963-74.

What is obvious here is that this has not happened in the TC community and no official apology has ever been expressed by the TC leaders towards the GC community which suffered equally from the likes of TMT and the Turkish invation and occupation. I am amazed by you zan because you are turning into a new vp yourself and you don't try any more for reconciliation but rather use your energy to score points by resenting some times to shallow arguments. I don't recall you doing this in the past.

My apologies to people like you askimwos but the recent and continued attack on VP has broken the camels back as far as some people go. I don't believe my comments can be anything but useful in the light of what people are posting and the crafty way they are doing it. I am not prepared to let them lay all the blame on us as a people via Turkey. We seem to go through a phase of acceptance and then the whole blame goes back to insulting my Turkishness of which I am proud. There seems to be an air of the disrespect to Turks in general that I saw when I first came upon this forum and it is slowly creeping back in.

[zan]

Zan the problem in the 1960 constitution were its undemocratic provisions that were forced on Cypriots by outsiders. Read the above about the pillars of democracy. Does it talk about veto rights of minorities (to be used to bring the who country in stalemates)
And after the semi-independence that we were given, both GCs and TCs were the aggressors. So don't insist on your one sided stories about that period.

A federation is a democracy too. Can you say that federal states like Belgium, USA, Switzerland are not democracies?

two points first:
1) Switzerland is a confederation (http://www.admin.ch).
2) The above quote about democracy was taken from USA government (which is a federation).

No, i didn't say that federations can not be democratic. Federations still adhere to all the above principles. The states are geographical regions of the country and exist because they were initially separate and then they joined together (except if you can find me another example of a unitary state that was violently broken into federation without democratic means). In federation all citizens of the country are equal, and they are free to become residents of any state they want. They are is not discrimination based on race or ethnic background in federations (or any other democratic country). Such kind of discrimination existed only is South Africa of apartheid.

A federation in Cyprus is not something right or just. Why should an area which is the homeland of 200.000 GCs and just 50.000 TCs be named Turkish? (state/country or whatever). We accepted that in Cyprus a federation is a possibility, as a huge compromise from our part because we were forced to, but it should still be a real federation, like the USA, and such federations still adhere to the democratic principles.

Then you should have tried to amend it DEMOCRATICALLY. Do you know what democracy is Piratis.


As to force......Was trying to FORCE ENOSIS on a large majority the right thing to do then. Was it then not our right to fight against such a forced and undemocratic decision.

[Piratis]

Zan, from the whole discussion in this forum it is now obvious that the majority of the GC members have accepted that there have been mistakes in the past from our side and indeed very serious ones. I believe that the GC community has matured after the experience of the past 60 years and I am sure that you will not find more than 3% supporting enosis. The preseident of the RoC parliament himself in a speech in the parliament a couple of years ago asked expressed a big apology to the TCs and accepted what blame the GC community is responsible for for the events of 1963-74.

What is obvious here is that this has not happened in the TC community and no official apology has ever been expressed by the TC leaders towards the GC community which suffered equally from the likes of TMT and the Turkish invation and occupation. I am amazed by you zan because you are turning into a new vp yourself and you don't try any more for reconciliation but rather use your energy to score points by resenting some times to shallow arguments. I don't recall you doing this in the past.

My apologies to people like you askimwos but the recent and continued attack on VP has broken the camels back as far as some people go. I don't believe my comments can be anything but useful in the light of what people are posting and the crafty way they are doing it. I am not prepared to let them lay all the blame on us as a people via Turkey. We seem to go through a phase of acceptance and then the whole blame goes back to insulting my Turkishness of which I am proud. There seems to be an air of the disrespect to Turks in general that I saw when I first came upon this forum and it is slowly creeping back in.

Zan,
1)
how many GCs have you seen in here supporting Enosis?
how many TCs have you seen in here supporting "TRNC" and partition

2)
How many GCs have you seen denying their share of responsibility for the 1963-68 conflict
How many TCs have you seen denying their share of responsibility for the 1963-68 conflict

3)
How many GCs have you seen trying to use the past as an excuse to conitnue crimes and illegalities today against TCs?
How many TCs have you seen trying to use the past as an excuse to conitnue crimes and illegalities today against GCs?

4)
How many GCs have you seen demanding that a solution requires the compromise of TCs human and legal rights?
How many TCs have you seen demanding that a solution requires the compromise of GCs human and legal rights?



Answer the above questions and then you will see who is showing disrespect toward whom, not just by words, but by the actions they support.

When people support totally disrespectful actions against the basic human rights of other members, then I don't think you can complain if in return they receive some disrespectful words. What is there to respect or like in those that want illegalities and crimes against us to continue?

[zan]

To try and take out the problems and conflicts of hundreds of years and try to desensitise the problem with a majority vote is just as irresponsible as it was to want ENOSIS then Piratis.

See my previous post about democracy. The problem is exactly that democracy, as described above, was not allowed for Cypriots.

If the Ottomans had passed a law that allowed the Turks to kill any GC they wanted would that be justifiable within the parameters you have set.

Thats more or less what the Ottomans did, and they didn't need any law for it either. The difference is that I am talking about the UN and international laws as well as universal principles as they exist in all other democratic countries, while you talk about an oppressive empire passing even more oppressive laws against its slaves. Two very different things.

The empire makes laws to serve itself. Did they make the international laws and the universal principles of democracy and human rights to serve the Greek Cypriots and harm the Turkish Cypriots?
If you were the victim then you would also demand international laws and human rights to be applied. But because you are the aggressors, those principles do not suit you and you want to force your own things for your benefit and to our loss.

And once independence was gained the aggressors were the GCs, where was the democracy in that. You claim democracy when it suits you and blame your aggression on a small group of people like it means something. Whether it was 500 or 300 years is not the point I was making and again when it suits you understand. The fact that ENOSIS has brought us to the position we are in today still does not ring alarm bells in your head to say that it was the wrong thing at the wrong time. You claim democracy but when your democratically elected leader was asked to denounce the violence that EOKA was committing he said he would not. What was he waiting for.....A vote on it. When the democratically elected TC part of the government of Cyprus used its democratically signed Veto Makarios was recorded as saying, "I made them pay it anyway", in the case of taxes. Is that the democracy you are referring to. Yes......Democracy the Greek way. We invented it so we can bend the rules accordingly. How pathetic.

Brilliant post zan..hit the nail right on the head

Whata you gotta do VP Is it that they don't or won't understand?

[Piratis]

Then you should have tried to amend it DEMOCRATICALLY. Do you know what democracy is Piratis.

Thats what Makarios did. He proposed changes. Those changes were not accepted by TCs and therefore they were not implemented. Nothing undemocratic was done.

As to force......Was trying to FORCE ENOSIS on a large majority the right thing to do then. Was it then not our right to fight against such a forced and undemocratic decision.

The majority wanted enosis. Thats how democracy works.
When Papadopoulos was elected president, and I didn't vote for him, does this mean I should start killing people because the majority "forced" him to be my president?

Enosis didn't entail any violation of your human rights. It is equivalent of a country joining the EU. It affects everyone in some way, but it doesn't violate the human rights of anybody and it is not illegal. The same for enosis before 1960.

Of course I can understand why you didn't want it, and I accept that a true independence would be best for a greater number of Cypriots.

This is why I do not support enosis today. If I thought it was the best for Cypriots then I would support it today. As you know I am not like some other members who would just say something to appease TCs or reject something just because it doesn't seem possible today.

[zan]

Then you should have tried to amend it DEMOCRATICALLY. Do you know what democracy is Piratis.

Thats what Makarios did. He proposed changes. Those changes were not accepted by TCs and therefore they were not implemented. Nothing undemocratic was done.

As to force......Was trying to FORCE ENOSIS on a large majority the right thing to do then. Was it then not our right to fight against such a forced and undemocratic decision.

The majority wanted enosis. Thats how democracy works.
When Papadopoulos was elected president, and I didn't vote for him, does this mean I should start killing people because the majority "forced" him to be my president?

Enosis didn't entail any violation of your human rights. It is equivalent of a country joining the EU. It affects everyone in some way, but it doesn't violate the human rights of anybody and it is not illegal. The same for enosis before 1960.

Of course I can understand why you didn't want it, and I accept that a true independence would be best for a greater number of Cypriots.

This is why I do not support enosis today. If I thought it was the best for Cypriots then I would support it today. As you know I am not like some other members who would just say something to appease TCs or reject something just because it doesn't seem possible today.

O.F.: And is it true that you deprived them of many constitutional privileges, Beatitude? M.: I deprived them of nothing. I simply complained about those privileges because they only served to hamper the functioning of the state. The Constitution provides that they be represented in the government at the ratio of thirty percent. And very often the Turkish Cypriots didn't have people capable of filling that thirty percent. There was, for example, a post that I could have been filled by an intelligent Greek and it had to be given to an illiterate Turk just because he was a Turk. Once they voted against taxes. I tried to explain to them that a state can't survive if the citizens don't pay taxes, and they refused anyway. So I forced them to pay all the same. Was that an abuse? Another time, when I was about to go to Belgrade for the conference of nonaligned countries, Mr. Denktash tried to stop me from going by exercising his veto power. I told him, "Exercise it all you like. I'm going just the same." Was that an abuse?'


I make that twice Piratis....................


http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/makarios ... allaci.htm

[Piratis]

ZAn, what you gave above proves that in the 1960 constitution some unfair and undemocratic parameters were passed that were causing the problems. Or maybe you insist that giving to the 18% minority the 30% of governmental jobs was not something unfair? Also it shows how TCs exercised their veto rights to create problems and stalemates.

Thats the problems you get when you deviate from the universal principles of democracy as they exist in all other democratic countries. And if the 1960 constitution had such deviations once, then the Annan plans and the other crap they want to force on us now have them 10 times as much. This is why we rejected them. Thankfully this time they gave us the right to reject it, they didn't just take Papadopoulos and force him to sign what they cooked for us as they did with Makarios.

[polis]

The EOKA of 1955-59 was an organization to fight the colonialists, unlike the TCs who sided with the colonialists to fight against GCs.

So we will honor those heroes forever, and those that will rot in hell are the colonialists and TCs that fought against us.

EOKA-B is another story, and nobody celebrates their illegal action and crimes apart from a few extremists. On the other hand, the TC equivalent of EOKA-B, TMT is still alive and well in the occupied areas.

Did you ever stop to think that your average Turkish Cypriot's demonization of EOKA is equally moronic and without any factual foundation as your own demonisation of EOKA B'.

You really are no better than the Turkish Cypriots you are attacking. I'm sure that some people will find comfort in this thought. Maybe we should add this to whatever all Cypriots share in common next to Halloumi and Coca Cola.