Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

do the tcs support taksim, coz thats what they got today

we dont support taksim at all . Thats why we changed our president from Denktash to Mr Talat

You should try as well and may be good things happen for GCs as well.

Why? what good things have happened to Turkish Cypriots since you swapped Denktash for Talat?

We voted yes for unification

[askimwos]

Some EOKA fighters may have been brave men but they were misguided and led by a bigoted fool who, had he waited a few more years, would have achieved independence on terms that probably would not see Cyprus divided as it is today.

Couldn't agree more..
A glance in the autobiography of Grivas himself will reveal the real truth about his motives. For thos GC Grivas lovers the fact that EOKA A' killed twice more GCs than British says it all. Grivas was a well know anti-communist that lead the organisation X during and after the occupation of Greece by the Germans.

Even Glafkos Klerides accepted that the armed struggle against the British ded more harm than good to Cyprus and its people.

For the Tc borthers though that tend to think that EOKA A' and EOKA B' was the same thing, I have to say that they need to look more into history as there are fundamental differences between the two groups and first and foremost in the way they have been viewed by the majority of GC people. EOKA A' was viewed as a liberating movement, rightly or wrongly, while EOKA B' was viewed as a terrorist organisation and as a group of thugs and murderers.

[zan]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

[askimwos]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

Zan, in order to analyse historical events you have to see things in the context of the time. I am not and have never been pro enosis, however, at the time independence was not in the cards for anybody in Cyprus. At the time people wanted to get rid of the British colonialist and get the obvious right of self determination as every people that every country that has been under the British or any other colonial nation at the time. Selfdetermination at the time propably meant Enosis with Greece as the majority of the population of the island were GCs.
In no other country selfdetermination was defined according to the ethnic background of the countries that have been under colonial rule. Take for example India where there are tens of different tribes and ethnic groups.
However, Grivas has another agenda as well and this was to exterminate and nullify the communist element on the island. That is why he did not allow communists to take part in EOKA and that is why he had ordered the killings of more GC communists than British.
After the signing of independence in 1960 the Tc minority was upgraded to community status and had political equality with the 1960 constitution. Therefore, the EOKA B' had very little appeal among the GC population and was viewed as a terrorist organisation.

[zan]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

Zan, in order to analyse historical events you have to see things in the context of the time. I am not and have never been pro enosis, however, at the time independence was not in the cards for anybody in Cyprus. At the time people wanted to get rid of the British colonialist and get the obvious right of self determination as every people that every country that has been under the British or any other colonial nation at the time. Selfdetermination at the time propably meant Enosis with Greece as the majority of the population of the island were GCs.
In no other country selfdetermination was defined according to the ethnic background of the countries that have been under colonial rule. Take for example India where there are tens of different tribes and ethnic groups.
However, Grivas has another agenda as well and this was to exterminate and nullify the communist element on the island. That is why he did not allow communists to take part in EOKA and that is why he had ordered the killings of more GC communists than British.
After the signing of independence in 1960 the Tc minority was upgraded to community status and had political equality with the 1960 constitution. Therefore, the EOKA B' had very little appeal among the GC population and was viewed as a terrorist organisation.

Let’s not beat about the bush here. The island had been under Turkish rule for 500 hundred years. Do you think that the Turks viewed this island as theirs. Of course they did. We move on. The British annexed the island and ruled it for a short time. The Greeks saw a chance for independence and the annexation of the island all in one foul swoop. They saw a weakened Turkey, am archenemy, and thought it a perfect time for this to happen. They tried to go over the heads of the indigenous TCs. Was that a wise choice at the time. They obviously anticipated resistance from the TCs with maybe some assistance from Turkey and drew up the Akritas plan. What I am trying to say is that it was a measured plan to once and for all take the island away from the Turks with the obvious obstacle and future problem of the TCs taken care of. Had they tried to just get independence and just independence then all the above would not have been necessary. So I ask once again was it wise to go for ENOSIS given the facts of history.

[Piratis]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

I can understand why you (TCs) didn't want enosis, in the same way that I can understand why some people in EU countries (and candidate countries) might not want their countries to be part of the European Union.

Howwever just like joining the EU can be done with a simple majority of 50%+1 vote, the same could be done for Cyprus joining Greece after being decolonized if this is what the majority of the population wanted.

I gave the link about the UN resolution about decolonization (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm ) many times. It clearly lists "integration into an independent State" as a legitimate option for territories being decolonized, if this is what the population of those territories wanted in a democratic way.

So you can say that you didn't agree with enosis, but you can not say that it was scandalous, criminal, illegal etc, because it wasn't, it was a legitimate way of Cyprus being decolonized.

What is and has always been criminal even before 1960 is partition because unlike enosis, it could only be achieved with undemocratic and forceful means that violated the human rights of 100s of thousands of people. And still, you support this crime even today, and you give lame excuses for it by selectively choosing tiny pieces of the past that suit you.

All the mistakes and crimes that GCs have done (with EOKA-B etc) , which are a fraction of those that we suffered from the Turks, are things of the past and we have accepted them all.
On the contrary, the Turks not only do not accept their many more crimes against us, but they continue committing more and more as we speak.

For example the turks complain about their victims of the intercommunal conflict. GCs accept that those crimes were committed. However how many TCs in here accept the equally many crimes of TCs against GCs during that period, and the way more crimes of the Turkish invasion and occupation against GCs?
Not only they do not accept them, but they continue to support those crimes today, 32 years after their excuse has expired. What most TCs show to us in here is a complete lack of respect. They probably think that the way Turkey shows no respect to Cyprus, they as individuals can do the same to us. And after all these they wonder how come the GCs don't like them.

[askimwos]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

Zan, in order to analyse historical events you have to see things in the context of the time. I am not and have never been pro enosis, however, at the time independence was not in the cards for anybody in Cyprus. At the time people wanted to get rid of the British colonialist and get the obvious right of self determination as every people that every country that has been under the British or any other colonial nation at the time. Selfdetermination at the time propably meant Enosis with Greece as the majority of the population of the island were GCs.
In no other country selfdetermination was defined according to the ethnic background of the countries that have been under colonial rule. Take for example India where there are tens of different tribes and ethnic groups.
However, Grivas has another agenda as well and this was to exterminate and nullify the communist element on the island. That is why he did not allow communists to take part in EOKA and that is why he had ordered the killings of more GC communists than British.
After the signing of independence in 1960 the Tc minority was upgraded to community status and had political equality with the 1960 constitution. Therefore, the EOKA B' had very little appeal among the GC population and was viewed as a terrorist organisation.

Let’s not beat about the bush here. The island had been under Turkish rule for 500 hundred years. Do you think that the Turks viewed this island as theirs. Of course they did. We move on. The British annexed the island and ruled it for a short time. The Greeks saw a chance for independence and the annexation of the island all in one foul swoop. They saw a weakened Turkey, am archenemy, and thought it a perfect time for this to happen. They tried to go over the heads of the indigenous TCs. Was that a wise choice at the time. They obviously anticipated resistance from the TCs with maybe some assistance from Turkey and drew up the Akritas plan. What I am trying to say is that it was a measured plan to once and for all take the island away from the Turks with the obvious obstacle and future problem of the TCs taken care of. Had they tried to just get independence and just independence then all the above would not have been necessary. So I ask once again was it wise to go for ENOSIS given the facts of history.

Zan please try to analyse history in the context of the time. I gave you the example of India. At the time (pre1960) the TCs were viewed as a minority in a unified indigenous population. Self determination meant one person one vote, there was no notion of political equality as is meant today, there was just the notion of democracy, simple 1 person = 1 vote.

I won't comment on things that go 500 years back and the ottoman years because you are using the same arguments used by Piratis who goes even further back in history. You yourself dismissed arguments of this kind before so at least don't make yourself look like a fool. You cannot pick an argument when its suits you and dismiss a similar argument when it does not.

[Piratis]

The island had been under Turkish rule for 500 hundred years. Do you think that the Turks viewed this island as theirs. Of course they did.

This is such a redicoulous argument. First of all Cyprus has not been under Turkish rule for 500 years, but for 300. The Ottomans had other territories for much longer, so maybe now they should also have claims over Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Egypt etc because they ruled them for some centuries and they have small Turkish minorities there?

It is apparent that the Turks are still living in the middle ages and they didn't realize that things changed since them. Ever heard of democracy Zan? Greeks invented it 1000s of years ago, and all civilized nations follow that today. Unfortunately Turkey is not one of them.

[askimwos]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

I can understand why you (TCs) didn't want enosis, in the same way that I can understand why some people in EU countries (and candidate countries) might not want their countries to be part of the European Union.

Howwever just like joining the EU can be done with a simple majority of 50%+1 vote, the same could be done for Cyprus joining Greece after being decolonized if this is what the majority of the population wanted.

I gave the link about the UN resolution about decolonization (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm ) many times. It clearly lists "integration into an independent State" as a legitimate option for territories being decolonized, if this is what the population of those territories wanted in a democratic way.

So you can say that you didn't agree with enosis, but you can not say that it was scandalous, criminal, illegal etc, because it wasn't, it was a legitimate way of Cyprus being decolonized.

What is and has always been criminal even before 1960 is partition because unlike enosis, it could only be achieved with undemocratic and forceful means that violated the human rights of 100s of thousands of people. And still, you support this crime even today, and you give lame excuses for it by selectively choosing tiny pieces of the past that suit you.

All the mistakes and crimes that GCs have done (with EOKA-B etc) , which are a fraction of those that we suffered from the Turks, are things of the past and we have accepted them all.
On the contrary, the Turks not only do not accept their many more crimes against us, but they continue committing more and more as we speak.

For example the turks complain about their victims of the intercommunal conflict. GCs accept that those crimes were committed. However how many TCs in here accept the equally many crimes of TCs against GCs during that period, and the way more crimes of the Turkish invasion and occupation against GCs?
Not only they do not accept them, but they continue to support those crimes today, 32 years after their excuse has expired. What most TCs show to us in here is a complete lack of respect. They probably think that the way Turkey shows no respect to Cyprus, they as individuals can do the same to us. And after all these they wonder how come the GCs don't like them.

Piratis you are right of most that you are saying. I will disagree with the last paragraph though where you state that most GCs don't like them. I say go out in the street and make a poll by asking what people think about ordinary TCs? You will be surprised by the answers you will get. Don't be misguided by what zan and vp say in this forum, they are not the average Tc either.

[zan]

Independence was one thing but ENOSIS was another given the climate and the history of the island. IT does not take a genius to see where that would and did eventually lead to. Trying to absolve part of EOKA of that mistake is ridiculous and scandalous.

I can understand why you (TCs) didn't want enosis, in the same way that I can understand why some people in EU countries (and candidate countries) might not want their countries to be part of the European Union.

Howwever just like joining the EU can be done with a simple majority of 50%+1 vote, the same could be done for Cyprus joining Greece after being decolonized if this is what the majority of the population wanted.

I gave the link about the UN resolution about decolonization (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm ) many times. It clearly lists "integration into an independent State" as a legitimate option for territories being decolonized, if this is what the population of those territories wanted in a democratic way.

So you can say that you didn't agree with enosis, but you can not say that it was scandalous, criminal, illegal etc, because it wasn't, it was a legitimate way of Cyprus being decolonized.

What is and has always been criminal even before 1960 is partition because unlike enosis, it could only be achieved with undemocratic and forceful means that violated the human rights of 100s of thousands of people. And still, you support this crime even today, and you give lame excuses for it by selectively choosing tiny pieces of the past that suit you.

All the mistakes and crimes that GCs have done (with EOKA-B etc) , which are a fraction of those that we suffered from the Turks, are things of the past and we have accepted them all.
On the contrary, the Turks not only do not accept their many more crimes against us, but they continue committing more and more as we speak.

For example the turks complain about their victims of the intercommunal conflict. GCs accept that those crimes were committed. However how many TCs in here accept the equally many crimes of TCs against GCs during that period, and the way more crimes of the Turkish invasion and occupation against GCs?
Not only they do not accept them, but they continue to support those crimes today, 32 years after their excuse has expired. What most TCs show to us in here is a complete lack of respect. They probably think that the way Turkey shows no respect to Cyprus, they as individuals can do the same to us. And after all these they wonder how come the GCs don't like them.

To try and take out the problems and conflicts of hundreds of years and try to desensitise the problem with a majority vote is just as irresponsible as it was to want ENOSIS then Piratis. If the Ottomans had passed a law that allowed the Turks to kill any GC they wanted would that be justifiable within the parameters you have set. I will save you the trouble of asking and say, no. Union with Greece was never going to be achieved by peaceful means and war was declared the moment that any group decided to follow that misguided route. It was obvious that an independent Cyprus was not what they wanted but a greater Greece. Again, given the history it was a declaration of war against the Turks from the outset.