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10 Lies of Greece

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Re: 10 Lies of Greece

Postby seleucus Nicator » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:46 am

GAVCARoCOM wrote:10 Biggest lies of Greece

To Vima newspaper from Greece declared the 10 biggest lies mentioned in the history books against the Ottoman Empire.

As in most of the Balkan countries, even in the European Countries, the history books read are full of heroic stories and myths. The biggest part of the history books is the revolt of Greece against the Ottoman Empire for getting its independence in 1821. Inspecting the history books full of heroic stories of the Greek people during the fighting period, TO VIMA newspaper published the "10 biggest lies" of Greece on the 185th Anniversary of its revolt against the Ottoman Empire. According to the research made by Andreas Pappas one of the authors of the newspaper, here are the Greek lies:

1st Lie: During the 400 years of Ottoman administration, Ottomans forced the Greek to accept Islam.

2nd Lie: Taken form their families by force, Christian children are forced to accept Islam and closed to Janissary Barracks.

3rd Lie: Greeks used to go to secret schools for learning their language and Christianity.

4th Lie: Greek Church fought hard against the Ottoman Empire.

5th Lie: Greek nation got its independence with a mutiny against the Ottoman Empire in 1821.

6th Lie: Thanks to the mutiny, Larissa (Central Greece) joined to Greek lands in 1881. Athens siege of the Ottoman Empire failed in 1897. Ottoman lands are shared with the Treaty of Sevres in 1920.

7th Lie: Only Greeks revolted against the Ottoman Empire.

8th Lie: Foreign countries supported Greeks because they liked them much.

9th Lie: Only Greeks lost their home.

10th Lie: Greeks emigrated from Anatolia to Greece are taken out of Hellenic lands during the First World War.


1st true Ottomans never forced Christian (beyond some exception) the reason was that the Christian subjects were paying ...taxes and not because Ottomans were tolerance (Turkish myth).Ottomans like all the conquerors were interested to collect taxes from the conquered areas.


2nd false (one more Turkish myth) about the devshirme ,we are dealing with the large numbers of Christians who, in spite of the material advantages offered by conversion to Islam, chose to remain members of a religious society which was denied first class citizenship. Therefore the proposition advanced by some “historians”, that the Christians welcomed the devshirme as it opened up wonderful opportunities for their children, is inconsistent with the fact that these Christians had not chosen to become Muslims in the first instance but had remained Christians there is abundant testimony to the very active dislike with which they viewed the taking of their children. One would expect such sentiments given the strong nature of the family bond and given also the strong attachment to Christianity of those who had not apostatized to Islam.First of all the Ottomans capitalized on the general Christian fear of losing their children and used offers of devshirme exemption in negotiations for surrender of Christian lands. Such exemptions were included in the surrender terms granted to Jannina, Galata, the Morea, Chios, etc…Christians who engaged in specialized activities which were important to the Ottoman state were likewise exempt from the tax on their children by way of recognition of the importance of their labors for the empire.Exemption from this tribute was considered a privilege and not a penalty.There are other documents wherein their [i.e., the Christians] dislike is much more explicitly apparent. These include a series of Ottoman documents dealing with the specific situations wherein the devshirmes themselves have escaped from the officials responsible for collecting them.A firman,in 1601 [regarding the devshirme] provided the [Ottoman] officials with stern measures of enforcement, a fact which would seem to suggest that parents were not always disposed to part with their sons.“..to enforce the command of the known and holy fetva [fatwa] of Seyhul [Shaikh]- Islam. In accordance with this whenever some one of the infidel parents or some other should oppose the giving up of his son for the Janissaries, he is immediately hanged from his door-sill, his blood being deemed unworthy.”It is obvious that the population strongly resented…this measure [and the levy] could be carried out only by force. Those who refused to surrender their sons- the healthiest, the handsomest and the most intelligent- were on the spot put to death by hanging. Nevertheless we have examples of armed resistance. In 1565 a revolt took place in Epirus and Albania. The inhabitants killed the recruiting officers and the revolt was put down only after the sultan sent five hundred janissaries in support of the local sanjak-bey. We are better informed, thanks to the historic archives of Yerroia,about the uprising in Naousa in 1705 where the inhabitants killed the Silahdar Ahmed Celebi and his assistants and fled to the mountains as rebels. Some of them were later arrested and put to death.Since there was no possibility of escaping [the levy] the population resorted to several subterfuges. Some left their villages and fled to certain cities which enjoyed exemption from the child levy or migrated to Venetian-held territories. The result was a depopulation of the countryside. Others had their children marry at an early age…Nicephorus Angelus…states that at times the children ran away on their own initiative, but when they heard that the authorities had arrested their parents and were torturing them to death, returned and gave themselves up. Finally, in their desperation the parents even appealed to the Pope and the Western powers for help.This happen by the Greeks parents of west Minor Asia, where their tragic request to the knights of Rhodes to intervene Pope Calixtus III to transfer them to Rhodes in order to avoid devshirme This request is saved and exist in the national library of Paris, this a written proof.

3nd true Ottomans never forbidden education (they never really interested)

4th partly true official church never fought (could not do else in Constantinople) against Ottomans but the local bishops ,simple priests and monks were side by side with the rebels.

5th false (another turkish myth ) The Greek uprising was victorious Ottomans were defeat and they asked the help of their ally of Egypt (and with the 2 Greek civil wars ) the Egyptians start to to give an end to the Greek revolution but the Navarino sea battle change the result.
The turkish myth is that the greeks are zimmi and the Turks are gazi reality is differend without the help of the Egyptians Greeks were the gazi.

6th I think that we forget the balcans wars (I dont know why they mention this as a lie Greek history just pass in two lines the defeat of 1897)

7th true The rebels consist from Greeks and Greek speaking Arvanites and Arvanitika speaking Arvanites (christians and muslims)

8th true Foreigners liked the ancient Greece.

9th the exchange of the population i also remember it from my school history book i dont know why the mention it as a lie

10th partly true because they already exist for hundred of years massive greek populations in Cappadokia Pontos and Asia minor.They migrate people like my grandmother to work to greek rιch house as a servant but temporarily.
Now just to mention one more Turkish (and pan turkish) myth like the lie of the 16 Turk Empires that the most of them are not related with the anatolia (Turkish) tribes (because Turkish is new term that was established after the so called Turkish War of Independence)
In Greece is a group of leftist historian that try interpret history in a different way.
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Postby GAVCARoCOM » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:48 am

contact Andreas Pappas, Nicator :wink:
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Re: 10 Lies of Greece

Postby T_C » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:38 am

seleucus Nicator wrote:Now just to mention one more Turkish (and pan turkish) myth like the lie of the 16 Turk Empires that the most of them are not related with the anatolia (Turkish) tribes (because Turkish is new term that was established after the so called Turkish War of Independence)


That is no myth my friend!

What you're talking about is Pan-TURANISM not so much Pan-Turkism.
It's not just about being related to Turkish people,Turks just make up a large part of it because they're so high in quantity, but the concept is about all of them having a Turkic relation to eachother. It's all about Turkic/Turanian people.

People do say that they're "only" distantly related but try telling them that!

They have massive celebrations on it....

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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:58 am

this was published indeed in vima, around a year ago. i remember translating this...

most of them are indeed myths.
now, how about sharing the turkish myths ?
lets see if we can learn sth from our collective myths :wink:
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Postby cypezokyli » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:04 am

slobo wrote:
GAVCARoCOM wrote:10 Biggest lies of Greece

To Vima newspaper from Greece declared the 10 biggest lies mentioned in the history books against the Ottoman Empire.


Vima never published such a list. Stop lying. Fucking Turks

TURKEY WILL NEVER JOIN THE EU

EUROPE IS FOR PEOPLE, NOT FOR ANIMALS


FUCKING TURKS

SHIT IN ATATURK'S GRAVE


you enter this forum only to swear ?

and heres the link for vima (if you can read greek ) :
http://tovima.dolnet.gr/print_article.p ... m=A17&aa=1

had you made an effort to read the comments above, you would have read that i have translated this for such forums before.

if you have sth else to give to this forum besides swearing and insulting, you are welcome.
if not, do as all a favor and stop posting such stupidities
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Postby miltiades » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:30 am

GAVCARoCOM wrote:If you want to celebrate the liberation of the island from the british then thats fine but using EOKA name which is the biggest reason why TCs suffer between 1963-74 then its wrong.
Even in turkey many people publish whatever they want aslongas not lies. Armenian situation is compleatly different because it is not cofirmed yet internationnally.About Hirant Hink i saw many discussions even it was blaming police in turkish newspapers. Anyway Its nothing to do with TCs and in TRNC you can write whatever you like aslongas you have proof that its true. We dont have any problems with that.


I have never once responded to the many posts , mostly without substance and unworthy of an answer. Let me just give some solid facts. In 1955 the Liberation struggle against the British occupation of Cyprus begun supported by the overwhelming majority of Cypriots , a Liberation struggle led by EOKA , an organization that enjoyed immense popularity with most Cypriots. EOKA , and the liberation struggle came to an end in 1959 . The subsequent resurrection and the resurgence of EOKA B organization had the support of a very small minority of Cypriots and was opposed by the silent majority.
The celebrations that take place each year is the commemorative date of the start of the Liberation struggle and has nothing what so ever to do with EOKA B . Are you aware that EOKA B was promoted by the Greek Military junta and did not enjoy the support of the majority of Cypriots .
I understand how indoctrination works in most nations but a little truth goes a long way. We have a nation that has gone through conflict and has paid the price of capitulating and following doctrines designed by fanatics on both sites. There were NO ANGELS in the Cyprus conflict. The fanatics , just as they exist today amongst us on this forum , existed then with an agenda of division and permanent partition or an agenda of giving our island away to a foreign nation. It is for us Cypriots to stand our ground and demand that we stop fanning the flames with one sided propaganda aimed at keeping our people apart. Both sides are neglecting the needs of our people for security , peace and a long term prosperity. For as long as there are "entities" whose only agenda is to perpetuate the "myths" created to install maximum hatred amongst the people of this island , conflict will continue to be a real future scenario.
Some on this forum have rejoiced at the return of VP , the return of a propagandist whose ONLY agenda is to continue the division of our island by instilling false fears and creating an atmosphere where co operation amongst our people is anathema. Every post will have been rehearsed according to the texts provided , and every one will contain derogatory statements on Cypriots.
The truth of the matter is that the Cypriots , T/Cs or G/Cs are one and the same , we have amongst us fanatics and destroyers as well as peacemakers and realists , only on this forum so many of us.
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Postby karma » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:53 am

Once Kikapu said " I hate the past coz there is no future in it"
this was the best comment I read in this forum :)
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Postby Bananiot » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:58 pm

Here is Droushiotis's evaluation of EOKA:

(Article written on April 1 2005)

Today is the 50th anniversary of the EOKA struggle. On this occasion the “Council of Historical Remembrance” and its various offshoots, are organising a series of events supported financially and politically by the state. EOKA is undoubtedly one of the most important landmarks of Cyprus’ recent history and symbolises the struggle of Greek Cypriots for freedom. This is the positive evaluation of the 1955 – 1959 period. But half a century later should have been long enough to enable us to acquire the maturity to see the complete picture, namely the negative outcome of the EOKA struggle on the history of Cyprus.

That we should honour those who died for their beliefs is commendable. However, this should not occur at the expense of historical truth. Nor should it be used as a means to obtain material or political rewards. The way that EOKA is being honoured smacks of the kind of practices carried out by dictatorial regimes which recognise only one truth. Anything that goes beyond this perceived truth is deemed to be hostile, undermining and sacrilegious.

In the name of EOKA our schools, from kindergarten to university, have become hotbeds of nationalism. Our children from a very early age, instead of being taught how to think for themselves, instead of being encouraged to question whatever is not supported by sound arguments, have become receptors of a relentless propaganda through a form of knowledge, which is filtered through the so-called “Council of Historical Remembrance”, thereby producing yes men rather than free-thinking citizens.

With the exception of a few EOKA members whose patriotism and self-sacrifice must of course be respected, the organisation as a whole has had a dramatically negative impact on the democratic development of the Cypriot society. As a result of the kind of struggle and the ideology that its leader, General G. Grivas, propounded, freedom of thought and expression were forbidden by force. Disagreement was considered treason and therefore punishable by death. A whole segment of the population, the Left, was stigmatised without a shred of evidence, as collaborating with the British Intelligence Service. EOKA banished collectivism and imposed that Makarios was “the one and only”.

When EOKA divided the Greek Cypriots into patriots and traitors (230 Greek Cypriots died at the hands of EOKA as opposed to 105 British), it also inevitably contributed to the division of the population into Greeks and Turks. As a result of its activities EOKA enabled Turkish Cypriot nationalists to set up the TMT. A close study of the activities of both organisations reveals that they are both surprisingly similar. This separation of the population into Greeks and Turks, Left and Right, was the legacy bequeathed to the newly created Republic of Cyprus.

History did not end when the struggle ended in 1959. It was the ideological side-effects of EOKA and TMT that undermined the Zurich agreements, which Mr Papadopoulos recently characterised as a godsend. When Grivas and his collaborators set up EOKA B, they were trying to recreate the EOKA spirit but they only succeeded in demolishing the structure of the Republic of Cyprus that had already cracked since 1963. It is many of these people who we see today strutting about as officials of the Council of Historical Remembrance, with their fat salaries and at the forefront of the various endless events of “remembrance and honour”, evidently because as a result of their feelings of guilt they have a need to be reassured that they were true patriots and freedom fighters to the end of their lives.

So when the lights go out at the end of the glorious ceremonies for the EOKA anniversary, we owe it to ourselves as a society to put our national costumes away in our cupboards and take a good hard look at our past. We must learn from it and start to teach our children in a way that will give them the tools to handle the future better than their forefathers did. This fairytale about armies of freedom fighters, while half our country is under occupation and the other half is still unwilling to accept the other community, must one day come to an end.
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