Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

[In Pano Koutraphas, there are no landmarks. There is no anything. What landmark would you like!? Go. Look for yourself. A word of advice: you won't find Pano Koutraphas. It's gone.

Really ? No landmarks? What about mountains in the distance?

And no previous photos of existing Mosques? Was photography invented before 1974?

So armed with nothing you took some pictures of where you thought a Mosque (or did it used to be a Church? ) must have stood and been razed to the ground by the GCs.

Of course there are no fucking during photographs. Do you think they took holiday snaps?

Never mind. You have already decided how it was "razed" to the ground. No need for evidence.

There is, of course, a signature: LOK (ΛΟΚ). Whose signature was that? Lambros Orfeas Konstantinidis? Louloudakis Oglanis Kalochortikis?

Is this the chap who you say "razed" the Mosque? Well of course he did it, and left his signature. Like Raffles, was it?

You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever. You have said that nature exists. Why is that "explanation" more likely?

I am not the one claiming the GCs "razed" mosques to the ground. That is a very serious accusation my dear and you had better start collecting some evidence! In future, it's wisest to gather the evidence first, before the wild accusations

Yes earthquakes can happen in one part of the earth and not another.

Nice line. But, obviously, I never denied that.

So now you admit, with all the evidence you have accumulated ... earthquakes can strike!

Yes one building can fall down at the top of a mountain and the one at the bottom not fall ...

Again, nice misdirection. Again, obviously, I never denied that.

Why is that a misdirection? Good of you to stay open minded to possibilities btw.

But the earth is not the butler. You cannot always blame the earth.

Ditto for the GCs. The GCs are not always your convenient "butler" just because you lack any evidence, and refuse all other possibilities.

I may not be being scientific, but you are being absurd.

Absurd? To counter your lack of evidence, sweeping statements and accusations. My, my - we are full of ourselves

Besides, if you make accusations, you'd better have some facts. Telling someone they are absurd for asking to see the evidence is insufficient.

If you insist upon denying any nationalist extremists did anything to anywhere,

A sweeping statement since there is nothing to deny. A lack of evidence means nothing Sam.

So, we are left with just your opinion ... and I've already said you are entitled to that!

[Icarus]

Look, the more antiquities you buy off them, the more profit they make, the more antiquities they loot to sell to you. I know it's awful, but if you buy the stolen artefacts, they will steal more.

If we don't buy the stolen antiquities, someone else will. They stole all our national treasures when they invaded in 1974. We are trying to pick up as many pieces as we possibly can...

No, it hasn't.

And by the way, you provided no evidence.

Greek Cypriot sources may say "Turkey" or "the TRNC" is to blame; but it is elements within the Turkish state, elements within the TRNC. It is the Turkish Deep State. It is important to acknowledge the difference. The Turkish State does not control the Turkish Deep State. The Turkish State fights against the Turkish Deep State. Blame the Turkish Deep State, please; but don't blame its victims and enemies.

Yes it has.

The "TRNC authorities" could have done something to prevent the Deep State from selling precious artifacts on the black market, just like the RoC protects many significant Muslim sites such as Tekke. It does not do so, and therefore, they should be held accountable. Don't tell me that there is nothing they could possibly do because that is the biggest cop out. There are many things they could do against the Turkish Deep State. Turkey itself has an Islamic Government and I am certain the Turkish Deep State is not too happy about that!

The Turkish Cypriots don't benefit from the profits; that goes to and stays with the criminals.

If you want to blame the Turkish Cypriots because the criminals spend their money in Turkish Cypriot shops, why don't you blame the Greek Cypriots for giving them the money to spend?

The Turkish Cypriots would have a better chance of resisting the Turkish Deep State if it weren't so well-funded and well-armed...

I blame the Turkish Cypriots because their administration are doing nothing about it.

I do not blame the RoC for trying to reclaim our inheritance. What else can it do?

Yeah, I realised that after I posted but you replied first. Sorry. Anyway, let's get back to arguing.

Not a problem...

Read more carefully next time.

My state has an elected government (though I did not vote for the party in power). It has invaded two countries and interfered in others in the time that I have been voting; but I am not responsible for my government's actions. I complained. I protested. What more did I have to do? Hold a coup...?

The Turkish Cypriots had protests of 80,000 people. The U.S. has never had a protest of 120 million; Britain has never had a protest of 24 million. When was the last Greek Cypriot protest of 240,000 people?

And what were the TCs demonstrating for?

Was it the Annan Plan by any chance. Of course the TCs would support the Annan Plan. And you know the reasons as to why the plan was rejected by GCs.

The TRNC does try to do what it can; but all of the Turkish Cypriot police is controlled by the Turkish occupation; and the Turkish occupation is run by the Turkish military, or the Turkish deep state. The Turkish government doesn't control the occupation.

Plus, neither side will work with the other. The RoC refuses to work with the TRNC just as much as the TRNC refuses to work with the RoC.

Why would the RoC work with the "TRNC"?

This would be a disaster and insinuate de-facto recognition of their authority in Cyprus. They are nothing but an illegal occupier of my country.

What about EOKA's murders of civilians? What about Akritas's murders, its destruction? Georgadjis, Papadopoulos, Clerides, Makarios...?

What about them?

Are you blaming them for defending themselves from the TMT's objective of TAKSIM?

Are you blaming them for trying to preserve the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cyprus?

Is this what you are blaming them for?

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence.

In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT.

Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

"Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created.

On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

What would you like the entirely unarmed, even-smaller-than-the-Greek-Cypriot community to do? If the RoC couldn't defeat the Turkish Army, how the fuck do you propose the Turkish Cypriot community does?

We don't expect miracles.

But what we do expect is for the Turkish Cypriots to do just one little thing to denounces the "TRNC" and expresses their allegiance with Greek Cypriots and the RoC.

If they don't do this, then there is no difference between them and the Turkish Invaders or the Turkish Deep State.

If the Leventis Foundation knows its incidentally funding the destruction of Cypriot cultural heritage, I would be very disappointed.

The Leventis Foundation is trying to recover lost treasures and inheritance. Nothing more.

I am certain they know the current situation in the "TRNC" and in Turkey.

Well, the international community does try to help. And looters know they cannot sell big or famous things on the market, because they know they will be caught. They take the big and famous things expecting the Republic of Cyprus or the Church of Cyprus to buy them. But still, other stuff will get stolen, yes. I don't expect anything much to change.

The situation is fucked.

It makes absolutely no difference.

If the RoC does not buy the antiquities, then some other rich bastard will.

The Turkish Deep State will still be pawning our national treasures and the RoC can only try to recover whatever it can.

I agree. The situation is fucked.

[samarkeolog]

[In Pano Koutraphas, there are no landmarks. There is no anything. What landmark would you like!? Go. Look for yourself. A word of advice: you won't find Pano Koutraphas. It's gone.

Really ? No landmarks? What about mountains in the distance?

Well, the Pano Koutraphas photo blog has photos of Kato Koutraphas in it. You could go to Kato Koutraphas and just follow the single road up to Pano Koutraphas. You could look out for this tree, which, as far as I can tell, is near the start of Pano Koutraphas; or you could look out for the fountain, which, as far as I remember, is near the end. There are photos in the blog showing landscape shots, so you can see the hills and mountains in the distance.

And no previous photos of existing Mosques? Was photography invented before 1974?

Hilarious.

Sadly, I don't have any photographs of the mosques before 1974. I admit, I'm no scientist, but I don't think that my lack of photographs from before 1974 means photography didn't exist before then...

But the (Greek Cypriot) Cyprus Civil Engineers' and Architects' Association is one of the partners in the bicommunal project. If you don't believe me, ask them. Presumably, they'll tell you to look at their website.

So armed with nothing you took some pictures of where you thought a Mosque (or did it used to be a Church? ) must have stood and been razed to the ground by the GCs.

There was no church in Pano Koutraphas. (And, again, I refer you to the Greek Cypriot architects who said the ruins were the mosque.)

I photographed the church in Agioi Eliophotes. I posted the photos on the Agioi Eliophotes blog. Was it the ghost of the church?

Of course there are no fucking during photographs. Do you think they took holiday snaps?

Never mind. You have already decided how it was "razed" to the ground. No need for evidence.

There is, of course, a signature: LOK (ΛΟΚ). Whose signature was that? Lambros Orfeas Konstantinidis? Louloudakis Oglanis Kalochortikis?

Is this the chap who you say "razed" the Mosque? Well of course he did it, and left his signature. Like Raffles, was it?

LOK: Lochos Oreinon Katadromon/Lochos Oreinon Katadromeon, the Mountain Commandos' Company, or Hellenic Raiding Force. I've discussed it with Greek Cypriots, and they think LOK means LOK. What do you think it means?

You haven't provided any evidence whatsoever. You have said that nature exists. Why is that "explanation" more likely?

I am not the one claiming the GCs "razed" mosques to the ground. That is a very serious accusation my dear and you had better start collecting some evidence! In future, it's wisest to gather the evidence first, before the wild accusations

So, you are actually saying that you don't need evidence to make claims. You do understand that saying earthquakes/weather destroyed these places is a claim, don't you?

Yes earthquakes can happen in one part of the earth and not another.

Nice line. But, obviously, I never denied that.

So now you admit, with all the evidence you have accumulated ... earthquakes can strike!

Er... Are you really an actual person, or are you an alien trying to learn human-speak? Or is this one of those tests where I have to work out which one of the people I'm speaking to is actually a computer?

Yes, I come out, I admit it: I do not deny the existence of earthquakes.

Well, there's a sentence I never thought I'd hear myself say.

Yes one building can fall down at the top of a mountain and the one at the bottom not fall ...

Again, nice misdirection. Again, obviously, I never denied that.

Why is that a misdirection? Good of you to stay open minded to possibilities btw.

It's misdirection because it makes it sound like I had denied that one building could fall down while another stayed standing, like I had claimed that either both buildings would fall down, or neither would.

But the earth is not the butler. You cannot always blame the earth.

Ditto for the GCs. The GCs are not always your convenient "butler" just because you lack any evidence, and refuse all other possibilities.

We've been through this time and time again. In this very thread I have talked about the destruction of churches. Please, for the sake of my patience, stop this reality-defying insistence that I blame the GCs for everything (and while you're at it, that I have no evidence, or that I provide no evidence).

I researched the looting and destruction in northern Cyprus.

I was put under surveillance.

I, my informants, friends and random people were harassed.

I left northern Cyprus to protect my work and my sources.

If I am not a friend of the Greek Cypriot community, you must be a fucking lonely bunch.

I may not be being scientific, but you are being absurd.

Absurd? To counter your lack of evidence, sweeping statements and accusations. My, my - we are full of ourselves

Besides, if you make accusations, you'd better have some facts. Telling someone they are absurd for asking to see the evidence is insufficient.

Like always, I didn't say that.

If you insist upon denying any nationalist extremists did anything to anywhere,

A sweeping statement since there is nothing to deny. A lack of evidence means nothing Sam.

Is Cypriot rain like English wind? People used to talk about the "English" or "Protestant" wind that protected England by delaying the Spanish Armada. Is Cypriot rain such a strong force that it destroyed these Turkish Cypriot villages? And only Turkish Cypriot villages. The Cypriot rain didn't destroy any Greek Cypriot villages by accident...

Well, do you accept that nationalists extremists ever destroyed anything? I mean, do you acknowledge that they did?

So, we are left with just your opinion ... and I've already said you are entitled to that!

Is Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe Senator Ymenus van der Werff entitled to his "opinion" as well?

Van der Werff (1989: 11) stated that Ktima Paphos's New Mosque 'had been entirely razed'.

But you're right. Perhaps there had been a really bad storm the winter before he visited.

(Van der Werff, Y. 1989: Information report on the cultural heritage of Cyprus (Doc. 6079). Brussels: Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.)

:wink:

Please don't wink at me. It makes me shudder. And I may do some permanent damage if I squirt bleach into my eyes again.

[samarkeolog]

Just for one example. although you could look through their website if you wanted to see more evidence, Cyprus Temples (to be clear, for you, the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Civil Engineers' and Architects' Association) say that Goshi Mosque was 'demolished before 1974'.

Hmmm. Earthquake or rain? Earthquake or rain...?

[samarkeolog]

Look, the more antiquities you buy off them, the more profit they make, the more antiquities they loot to sell to you. I know it's awful, but if you buy the stolen artefacts, they will steal more.

If we don't buy the stolen antiquities, someone else will. They stole all our national treasures when they invaded in 1974. We are trying to pick up as many pieces as we possibly can...

No, it hasn't.

And by the way, you provided no evidence.

Greek Cypriot sources may say "Turkey" or "the TRNC" is to blame; but it is elements within the Turkish state, elements within the TRNC. It is the Turkish Deep State. It is important to acknowledge the difference. The Turkish State does not control the Turkish Deep State. The Turkish State fights against the Turkish Deep State. Blame the Turkish Deep State, please; but don't blame its victims and enemies.

Yes it has.

You still provided no evidence.

Do you have any? If you do, don't waste your time posting it here. Forward it straight to Interpol.

:?

The "TRNC authorities" could have done something to prevent the Deep State from selling precious artifacts on the black market, just like the RoC protects many significant Muslim sites such as Tekke. It does not do so, and therefore, they should be held accountable. Don't tell me that there is nothing they could possibly do because that is the biggest cop out.

You have no idea how powerful the Turkish Deep State is, do you?

Anyway, as PACE Senator Ymenus van der Werff had already observed twenty years ago,

The south is also vulnerable as the theft of the Leda and Swan mosaic from the Paphos museum shows. Unfortunately, the international art market is now well aware of the existence of a well-funded market in the south for items coming from the north (van der Werff, 1989: 11).

(Van der Werff, Y. 1989: Information report on the cultural heritage of Cyprus (Doc. 6079). Brussels: Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.)

Are you going to hold the South accountable?

Are you going to report it to Interpol as well?

No, because being robbed doesn't make you a robber; it makes you a victim. The RoC didn't help the thieves take the Leda and Swan; the RoC tried to stop theft; but it couldn't. It's the same for the TRNC.

If I steal your car, can I tell the police you were my accomplice? After all, you didn't stop me stealing your car.

There are many things they could do against the Turkish Deep State. Turkey itself has an Islamic Government and I am certain the Turkish Deep State is not too happy about that!

It isn't too happy about that, no! That's why there was nearly a coup - nearly two! And there were several "mini"-coups, like the "e-coup". There were also murders, like the murder of Hrant Dink.

Of course, in 1996 there was the murder of Kutlu Adali, for his reporting on the Turkish Deep State's looting of St. Barnabas Monastery. (In fact, he blamed the Civil Defence Organisation, which was an auxiliary of the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command, which was... the successor to TMT.) But don't let his death cloud your judgement...

Turkish Cypriots are not free. They are not free to criticise the Turkish Deep State, and they are not free to challenge it.

The Turkish Cypriots don't benefit from the profits; that goes to and stays with the criminals.

If you want to blame the Turkish Cypriots because the criminals spend their money in Turkish Cypriot shops, why don't you blame the Greek Cypriots for giving them the money to spend?

The Turkish Cypriots would have a better chance of resisting the Turkish Deep State if it weren't so well-funded and well-armed...

I blame the Turkish Cypriots because their administration are doing nothing about it.

I do not blame the RoC for trying to reclaim our inheritance. What else can it do?

Yeah, I realised that after I posted but you replied first. Sorry. Anyway, let's get back to arguing.

Not a problem...

Read more carefully next time.

Is there no emoticon for doffing my cap to you?

My state has an elected government (though I did not vote for the party in power). It has invaded two countries and interfered in others in the time that I have been voting; but I am not responsible for my government's actions. I complained. I protested. What more did I have to do? Hold a coup...?

The Turkish Cypriots had protests of 80,000 people. The U.S. has never had a protest of 120 million; Britain has never had a protest of 24 million. When was the last Greek Cypriot protest of 240,000 people?

And what were the TCs demonstrating for?

Was it the Annan Plan by any chance. Of course the TCs would support the Annan Plan. And you know the reasons as to why the plan was rejected by GCs.

The TRNC does try to do what it can; but all of the Turkish Cypriot police is controlled by the Turkish occupation; and the Turkish occupation is run by the Turkish military, or the Turkish deep state. The Turkish government doesn't control the occupation.

Plus, neither side will work with the other. The RoC refuses to work with the TRNC just as much as the TRNC refuses to work with the RoC.

Why would the RoC work with the "TRNC"?

This would be a disaster and insinuate de-facto recognition of their authority in Cyprus. They are nothing but an illegal occupier of my country.

You want the international community to cooperate with the RoC, but not the TRNC, even though the stuff is getting stolen from the TRNC...?

You want the TRNC to cooperate with, or help, you, but you don't want to cooperate with or help the TRNC? You say the RoC needs the international community to help it. How do you think the TRNC can cope on its own?

What about EOKA's murders of civilians? What about Akritas's murders, its destruction? Georgadjis, Papadopoulos, Clerides, Makarios...?

What about them?

Are you blaming them for defending themselves from the TMT's objective of TAKSIM?

Are you blaming them for trying to preserve the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cyprus?

Is this what you are blaming them for?

They were not trying to preserve Cyprus's sovereignty. They were trying to do precisely the opposite, to give up Cyprus's sovereignty entirely to Greece.

And if you think killing civilians is self-defence, then, er...

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence.

In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT.

Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

"Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created.

On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

This stuff has been endlessly discussed here. From Greek Cypriot Makarios Drousiotis to Canadian UN peacekeeper Richard Patrick, no-one denies that TMT and the Turkish Deep State are a bunch of bastards, but everyone neutral agrees that EOKA and Akritas were also a bunch of bastards, and that Akritas pushed for violence for enosis.

What would you like the entirely unarmed, even-smaller-than-the-Greek-Cypriot community to do? If the RoC couldn't defeat the Turkish Army, how the fuck do you propose the Turkish Cypriot community does?

We don't expect miracles.

But what we do expect is for the Turkish Cypriots to do just one little thing to denounces the "TRNC" and expresses their allegiance with Greek Cypriots and the RoC.

If they don't do this, then there is no difference between them and the Turkish Invaders or the Turkish Deep State.

If the Leventis Foundation knows its incidentally funding the destruction of Cypriot cultural heritage, I would be very disappointed.

The Leventis Foundation is trying to recover lost treasures and inheritance. Nothing more.

I am certain they know the current situation in the "TRNC" and in Turkey.

Well, the international community does try to help. And looters know they cannot sell big or famous things on the market, because they know they will be caught. They take the big and famous things expecting the Republic of Cyprus or the Church of Cyprus to buy them. But still, other stuff will get stolen, yes. I don't expect anything much to change.

The situation is fucked.

It makes absolutely no difference.

If the RoC does not buy the antiquities, then some other rich bastard will.

The Turkish Deep State will still be pawning our national treasures and the RoC can only try to recover whatever it can.

I agree. The situation is fucked.

[Icarus]

You still provided no evidence.

Do you have any? If you do, don't waste your time posting it here. Forward it straight to Interpol.

What more evidence do you want? You know very well that our antiquities are being sold on the black market, and you seek to absolve the "TRNC" from all responsibility by blaming the Turkish mafia and the Turkish Deep State.

I'm sorry, but it just does not work that way. All TCs are responsible for the desecration of Cypriot history as well as the Turkish Army and the Deep State.

You also choose to ignore the fact that TCs are selling stolen GC properties. Is the Turkish deep State responsible for this as well, or are you finally going to admit that the TCs are also involved and are enjoying the stolen loot as we speak? There are forum members here, who are exploiting GC properties. And of course, they don't want a solution because they will lose their illegitimate gains.

Being an archaeologist/historian/lecturer at Sussex university, you are obviously an intelligent person, but please do not insult my intelligence. The evidence is all around you Sam Hardy.

:?
You have no idea how powerful the Turkish Deep State is, do you?

Yes I do. And the "TRNC" is part of the very same Turkish Deep State.

You know this is true.

Anyway, as PACE Senator Ymenus van der Werff had already observed twenty years ago,

The south is also vulnerable as the theft of the Leda and Swan mosaic from the Paphos museum shows. Unfortunately, the international art market is now well aware of the existence of a well-funded market in the south for items coming from the north (van der Werff, 1989: 11).

(Van der Werff, Y. 1989: Information report on the cultural heritage of Cyprus (Doc. 6079). Brussels: Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.)

Are you going to hold the South accountable?

Yes I am.

I hold them responsible because they did not have adequate measures for preventing this from happening.

But it is hardly comparable to the wholesale looting of Cypriot antiquities and artifacts by the "TRNC" regime. You keep stating that the "TRNC" is not part of this Deep State, but you seem to forget that Denktash was the "TRNC" president for many years and now the TCs have elected Eroglu.

Are you going to report it to Interpol as well?

The RoC probably has reported it to Interpol.

No, because being robbed doesn't make you a robber; it makes you a victim. The RoC didn't help the thieves take the Leda and Swan; the RoC tried to stop theft; but it couldn't. It's the same for the TRNC.

Hardly a good analogy between a criminal event and the looting and desecration of Cypriot antiquities by the "TRNC" regime.

If I steal your car, can I tell the police you were my accomplice? After all, you didn't stop me stealing your car.

Now you are being silly.

It isn't too happy about that, no! That's why there was nearly a coup - nearly two! And there were several "mini"-coups, like the "e-coup". There were also murders, like the murder of Hrant Dink.

Now we are getting somewhere.

The Turkish State has enshrined the Turkish Deep State so much so that its powers are even enshrined within the constitution.

Of course, in 1996 there was the murder of Kutlu Adali, for his reporting on the Turkish Deep State's looting of St. Barnabas Monastery. (In fact, he blamed the Civil Defence Organisation, which was an auxiliary of the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command, which was... the successor to TMT.) But don't let his death cloud your judgement...

Yeh...and I wonder who murdered him...The very supporters of Denktash and Eroglu perhaps?

Turkish Cypriots are not free. They are not free to criticise the Turkish Deep State, and they are not free to challenge it.

They have themselves to blame for this, and soon they will be removed from the equation all together.

The Turkish Cypriots don't benefit from the profits; that goes to and stays with the criminals.

I blame Turkey, the "TRNC" and the Turkish Army.

If you want to blame the Turkish Cypriots because the criminals spend their money in Turkish Cypriot shops, why don't you blame the Greek Cypriots for giving them the money to spend?

And what have the TCs done about preventing the looting of Cypriot Antiquities? And why would I blame the GCs for trying to preserve my inheritance?

The Turkish Cypriots would have a better chance of resisting the Turkish Deep State if it weren't so well-funded and well-armed...

I don't see much resistance going on. Do you?

If so, why are they not resisting the plunder of stolen GC property?

Is the ECJ ruling against the Orams good enough proof for you?

Is there no emoticon for doffing my cap to you?

I don't use emoticons when discussing serious matters pertaining to my enslaved country and the continued injustice it endures...

My state has an elected government (though I did not vote for the party in power). It has invaded two countries and interfered in others in the time that I have been voting; but I am not responsible for my government's actions. I complained. I protested. What more did I have to do? Hold a coup...?

No! Because your country did not invade another country to permanently divide, conquer and occupy. If your country did do this, and also ethnically cleansed, sold stolen refugee property and the countries antiquities and national treasures, then you and every other Brit would have a lot to answer for.

You want the international community to cooperate with the RoC, but not the TRNC, even though the stuff is getting stolen from the TRNC...?

You want the TRNC to cooperate with, or help, you, but you don't want to cooperate with or help the TRNC? You say the RoC needs the international community to help it. How do you think the TRNC can cope on its own?

There is no "TRNC" to cooperate with. There is just an illegal Turkish military occupation on the island and the RoC is not going to cooperate with the occupiers or give them any recognition whatsoever.

It is the "TRNC" that has looted and desecrated the island of its antiquities and heritage. There is no need to cooperate with thieves.

They were not trying to preserve Cyprus's sovereignty. They were trying to do precisely the opposite, to give up Cyprus's sovereignty entirely to Greece.

Any proof to back up this statement?

Have you heard of the TMT Kophinou blockade and the illegal importation of Arms through the the Kokkina Beachhead.

Why wasn't ENOSIS declared when there were thousands of Greek Troops on the ground trying to preserve the peace? And why did these Greek troops withdraw to make way for the UN Peace Keeping Force?

Because ENOSIS was not on their agenda.

The ENOSIS agenda came later when the US created the Acheson Plan for double union.

And if you think killing civilians is self-defence, then, er...

How many GC and TC civilians were killed by TMT?

The country was at war, and the Republic of Cyprus was defending itself from TMT partitionist objectives. There were bound to be civilian casualties along the line.

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence.

In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT.

Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

"Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created.

On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html[/quote]

Samarkeolog wrote:

This stuff has been endlessly discussed here. From Greek Cypriot Makarios Drousiotis to Canadian UN peacekeeper Richard Patrick, no-one denies that TMT and the Turkish Deep State are a bunch of bastards, but everyone neutral agrees that EOKA and Akritas were also a bunch of bastards, and that Akritas pushed for violence for enosis.

Which version of the Akritas Plan did you read?

I have read the document, and it makes no mention of ENOSIS.

[DT.]

Sam you do know ΛΟΚ (Λοκατζιδες) is the present day commando forces of the National Guard right?

[DT.]

Sam you do know ΛΟΚ (Λοκατζιδες) is the present day commando forces of the National Guard right?

In continuation of this you do know that LOK conduct war games till this day in deserted villages (obviously since they can't enter inhabited ones). Its common place for them to inscribe ΛΟΚ at places where they frequent for training.

2 of my mates who are in the commandoes will be away for the weekend on exercises in 3 deserted villages (which they wouldn't appreciate me naming right now.)

Don't know if this matters but thought I'd let you know anyway.

[samarkeolog]

You still provided no evidence.

Do you have any? If you do, don't waste your time posting it here. Forward it straight to Interpol.

What more evidence do you want?

You haven't provided any.

You know very well that our antiquities are being sold on the black market, and you seek to absolve the "TRNC" from all responsibility by blaming the Turkish mafia and the Turkish Deep State.

I'm sorry, but it just does not work that way. All TCs are responsible for the desecration of Cypriot history as well as the Turkish Army and the Deep State.

Then all GCs are responsible as well, because stuff still gets looted and stolen from southern Cyprus. And the RoC is responsible too, because stuff still gets looted and stolen from its territory, including from its museums.

You cannot blame TCs but not GCs. That's not because it would be unfair or imbalanced: that's because it would be untrue. Looting happens all over the island, so if the TCs and the TRNC are responsible for it happening in northern Cyprus, the GCs and the RoC are responsible for it happening in southern Cyprus.

You also choose to ignore the fact that TCs are selling stolen GC properties. Is the Turkish deep State responsible for this as well, or are you finally going to admit that the TCs are also involved and are enjoying the stolen loot as we speak? There are forum members here, who are exploiting GC properties. And of course, they don't want a solution because they will lose their illegitimate gains.

I ignored it because it is a different subject. It's the same reason I didn't talk about the massive hotels, or the money-laundering, or anything else.

As for the houses, I would only say that most Turkish Cypriots are poor, and people selling stolen Greek Cypriot homes make a huge profit; so it's very obvious that most Turkish Cypriots are not selling Greek Cypriot houses or profiting from their sale.

For a while, $1 billion of Russian mafia money was being laundered in the RoC every month. Are the GCs responsible for that? Did the GCs profit from that?

Being an archaeologist/historian/lecturer at Sussex university, you are obviously an intelligent person, but please do not insult my intelligence. The evidence is all around you Sam Hardy.

I'm only a student, and I'm not insulting your intelligence. I respect you. I think you can understand the evidence and see the truth - that's why I'm showing it to you.

:?
You have no idea how powerful the Turkish Deep State is, do you?

Yes I do. And the "TRNC" is part of the very same Turkish Deep State.

You know this is true.

It depends upon which people and institutions we're talking about. Some of the police are; some of the police aren't. Denktas was; Talat is not.

Anyway, as PACE Senator Ymenus van der Werff had already observed twenty years ago,

The south is also vulnerable as the theft of the Leda and Swan mosaic from the Paphos museum shows. Unfortunately, the international art market is now well aware of the existence of a well-funded market in the south for items coming from the north (van der Werff, 1989: 11).

(Van der Werff, Y. 1989: Information report on the cultural heritage of Cyprus (Doc. 6079). Brussels: Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.)

Are you going to hold the South accountable?

Yes I am.

I hold them responsible because they did not have adequate measures for preventing this from happening.

But it is hardly comparable to the wholesale looting of Cypriot antiquities and artifacts by the "TRNC" regime. You keep stating that the "TRNC" is not part of this Deep State, but you seem to forget that Denktash was the "TRNC" president for many years and now the TCs have elected Eroglu.

Are you going to report it to Interpol as well?

The RoC probably has reported it to Interpol.

I meant, are you going to report the RoC to Interpol because it "allowed" Leda and Swan to be stolen. (If the TRNC "allows" itself to be robbed, so does the RoC.)

No, because being robbed doesn't make you a robber; it makes you a victim. The RoC didn't help the thieves take the Leda and Swan; the RoC tried to stop theft; but it couldn't. It's the same for the TRNC.

Hardly a good analogy between a criminal event and the looting and desecration of Cypriot antiquities by the "TRNC" regime.

If I steal your car, can I tell the police you were my accomplice? After all, you didn't stop me stealing your car.

Now you are being silly.

If I am, you were being before. You said (all) the TCs were accomplices in the looting of northern Cyprus (because they didn't stop it). It's the same argument.

It isn't too happy about that, no! That's why there was nearly a coup - nearly two! And there were several "mini"-coups, like the "e-coup". There were also murders, like the murder of Hrant Dink.

Now we are getting somewhere.

Maybe.

The Turkish State has enshrined the Turkish Deep State so much so that its powers are even enshrined within the constitution.

No.

If the Turkish State is the Turkish Deep State, why does the Turkish Deep State need to have coups to overthrow the Turkish State? Why does the deep state need to commit murders to scare the Turkish community and the Turkish state? The Turkish state and the Turkish community are against the deep state - that's why it needs to frighten and kill them.

Of course, in 1996 there was the murder of Kutlu Adali, for his reporting on the Turkish Deep State's looting of St. Barnabas Monastery. (In fact, he blamed the Civil Defence Organisation, which was an auxiliary of the Turkish Cypriot Security Forces Command, which was... the successor to TMT.) But don't let his death cloud your judgement...

Yeh...and I wonder who murdered him...The very supporters of Denktash and Eroglu perhaps?

I suspect he was killed by the people he accused of looting St. Barnabas Monastery. At least, they put the contract on him. As far as I understand, it was probably Grey Wolf Abdullah Catli who killed him.

Turkish Cypriots are not free. They are not free to criticise the Turkish Deep State, and they are not free to challenge it.

They have themselves to blame for this, and soon they will be removed from the equation all together.

So now you accept that they are not free, but you still hold them responsible...?

The Turkish Cypriots don't benefit from the profits; that goes to and stays with the criminals.

I blame Turkey, the "TRNC" and the Turkish Army.

If you want to blame the Turkish Cypriots because the criminals spend their money in Turkish Cypriot shops, why don't you blame the Greek Cypriots for giving them the money to spend?

And what have the TCs done about preventing the looting of Cypriot Antiquities? And why would I blame the GCs for trying to preserve my inheritance?

So, it's okay for Greek Cypriots to give them money, but not for Turkish Cypriots to take the money from them? Or, it's bad for TCs to take money from the criminals, but it's not bad for GCs to give money to them?

The Turkish Cypriots would have a better chance of resisting the Turkish Deep State if it weren't so well-funded and well-armed...

I don't see much resistance going on. Do you?

Well, above you accepted that they were not free to resist. You said "they have themselves to blame for this". How do you resist when you don't have the freedom to resist? You must understand, if you don't have the ability to resist, you don't have... the ability to resist. And if you don't have the freedom to do something, you are not responsible for not doing it.

I haven't achieved world peace or ended world hunger. But I'm not responsible for that, because I don't have the ability to achieve world peace or end world hunger. The TCs don't have the ability to resist, so they're not responsible for not getting rid of the occupation and the deep state.

If so, why are they not resisting the plunder of stolen GC property?

Is the ECJ ruling against the Orams good enough proof for you?

I don't deny that some TCs are selling stolen GC property; I deny that all of them are, or that all of them are responsible for the few who do.

Is there no emoticon for doffing my cap to you?

I don't use emoticons when discussing serious matters pertaining to my enslaved country and the continued injustice it endures...

My state has an elected government (though I did not vote for the party in power). It has invaded two countries and interfered in others in the time that I have been voting; but I am not responsible for my government's actions. I complained. I protested. What more did I have to do? Hold a coup...?

No! Because your country did not invade another country to permanently divide, conquer and occupy.

Afghanistan.

Iraq.

And if we go back further in time, the entire British Empire.

If your country did do this, and also ethnically cleansed, sold stolen refugee property and the countries antiquities and national treasures, then you and every other Brit would have a lot to answer for.

You want the international community to cooperate with the RoC, but not the TRNC, even though the stuff is getting stolen from the TRNC...?

You want the TRNC to cooperate with, or help, you, but you don't want to cooperate with or help the TRNC? You say the RoC needs the international community to help it. How do you think the TRNC can cope on its own?

There is no "TRNC" to cooperate with. There is just an illegal Turkish military occupation on the island and the RoC is not going to cooperate with the occupiers or give them any recognition whatsoever.

It is the "TRNC" that has looted and desecrated the island of its antiquities and heritage. There is no need to cooperate with thieves.

It is not the TRNC.

If you insist upon reducing the Turkish Cypriot community, and the Turkish Cypriot administration, and the Turkish community, and the Turkish state, and the Turkish deep state, all to the same thing, all to one eternal enemy, one eternal evil, you will never achieve peace, and you will never rescue your country.

Say goodbye to your cultural heritage and your country, because if you do not cooperate with the Turkish Cypriot community, you will not achieve anything. You will lose northern Cyprus forever.

They were not trying to preserve Cyprus's sovereignty. They were trying to do precisely the opposite, to give up Cyprus's sovereignty entirely to Greece.

Any proof to back up this statement?

The definition of enosis was union with Greece. Do you think that when Greece and Cyprus unified, the Greek government was going to disappear and the Cypriot government would rule both countries? Cyprus would have become like Crete; it would have lost its sovereignty.

Have you heard of the TMT Kophinou blockade and the illegal importation of Arms through the the Kokkina Beachhead.

Why wasn't ENOSIS declared when there were thousands of Greek Troops on the ground trying to preserve the peace? And why did these Greek troops withdraw to make way for the UN Peace Keeping Force?

Because ENOSIS was not on their agenda.

The ENOSIS agenda came later when the US created the Acheson Plan for double union.

And if you think killing civilians is self-defence, then, er...

How many GC and TC civilians were killed by TMT?

So if we're standing on Ledra Street, and you pull out a gun and shoot a woman shopping, I'm allowed to do the same?

I'm not defending TMT. I dislike both EOKA and TMT.

The country was at war, and the Republic of Cyprus was defending itself from TMT partitionist objectives. There were bound to be civilian casualties along the line.

They were not all accidental casualties.

In addition to the hostile environment that was created by combatants on both sides, there was a second factor that led to the polarization of both communities: with a view toward partition, the Turks withdrew from predominantly Greek areas and evicted Greeks from areas where Turks were in the majority.

Turkish extremists forced several thousand Turkish peasants to abandon their farms and animals and move into an overcrowded Turkish enclave in Nicosia.

Turkish Cypriots who favoured compromise or a close relationship between the two ethnic communities were targets of TMT violence.

In Limassol, a Turkish Cypriot owner of a restaurant popular with Greeks was threatened and later murdered by the TMT.

Two progressive-thinking, London-educated Turkish barristers who spoke against partition were killed outright by these same Turkish gangs.

"Thus the aim of partition, camouflaged by Turkish propaganda as `federation,' was relentlessly pursued regardless of loss of human life and the human misery created.

On December 23, 1963, Turkish gangs also moved through the Armenian quarter of Nicosia and forced the inhabitants at gunpoint to leave their houses, shops, church, school and clubs to make room for more Turks.

http://www.ahmp.org/MedByp2.html

Samarkeolog wrote:

This stuff has been endlessly discussed here. From Greek Cypriot Makarios Drousiotis to Canadian UN peacekeeper Richard Patrick, no-one denies that TMT and the Turkish Deep State are a bunch of bastards, but everyone neutral agrees that EOKA and Akritas were also a bunch of bastards, and that Akritas pushed for violence for enosis.

Which version of the Akritas Plan did you read?

I have read the document, and it makes no mention of ENOSIS.[/quote]



Look, I'm happy to talk to you about interesting things. I enjoy a discussion - even an argument! - but I'm not pissing away my time discussing whether or not the Akritas Organisation was enosist.

[samarkeolog]

Sam you do know ΛΟΚ (Λοκατζιδες) is the present day commando forces of the National Guard right?

In continuation of this you do know that LOK conduct war games till this day in deserted villages (obviously since they can't enter inhabited ones). Its common place for them to inscribe ΛΟΚ at places where they frequent for training.

2 of my mates who are in the commandoes will be away for the weekend on exercises in 3 deserted villages (which they wouldn't appreciate me naming right now.)

Don't know if this matters but thought I'd let you know anyway.

Cheers, yeah, I appreciate it.

I had seen references to Greek Cypriot commandos as LOK, but I hadn't had access to the stuff that discussed GC LOK's activities (when and where, during the conflict, etc.).

I wish they'd included the date like the National Guard did! (It is the National Guard who tag things "93B", "B 2003", "BOOM 82", etc., isn't it?)

The "67B" and "68B" graffiti were on the same interior wall as the LOK one, so the home must have been destroyed by 1967. But yeah, LOK could have tagged it last year.

It does matter. It's a pain in the arse for me, but it does matter!

I know Goshi was destroyed in 1974, but I don't know how destroyed it was, because the National Guard use it for war games. Certainly, one building was less destroyed before - you can see part of the "4" they spray-painted onto the ruin has disappeared.

Thanks.

... Now, do you want to explain all this to archaeologists for me?