Cyprus-Forum.com

[geot]

Off the subject a bit but, a couple of questions;

1. What is wrong with being Cypriot, why do you want to be Greek? That has always puzzled me!

2. In the same context as Cypriots being the ones who should determine their national loyalty, how does the ‘panel’ feel about the residents of the Falkland Islands, wishing to be British but the Argentines are adamant that the Islands belong to them because they share the same continental shelf and Argentina is the nearest country.

Whose claim is the most just/valid, the Islanders or the Argentines?

Hi Robin

Theres nothing wrong being Cypriot! To understand this you have to look into history... Greek kingdoms started appearing in Cyprus and the island was "hellinised" (see Hellenic Period - a historical term used for Cyprus). The Greek language spread, religion, customs etc by these kingdoms and it was in a peaceful way it was not a colonisation or invation. When Cypriots fought against the British colony (holding the Greek flag as there was no Cyprus flag at that time) they did this with one goal: Enosis (meaning uniting Cyprus with Greece). There was a referendum for that and 99% of the population wanted enosis. Instead of enosis they gave us independence. Now the problem started from there on and things got more complicated:

Around 50% of the population even after independence felt betrayed and still wanted enosis - the majority of these people are politically right wing. The other 50% of the population accepted independence and just got on with - the majority of these people are politically left wing (communist party). After independence Greece for its own interests wanted to keep the island as much "attached" to Greece as possible... and this in more details meant: books in schools coming from mainland Greece, both flags of Greece & Cyprus in all Cyprus, Greek tv channels in Cyprus etc etc. Until maybe 10-15 years ago Cyprus yes, was dependent somehow on Greece, and slowly slowly got away from this "dependence".

Due to Cyprus being always invaded / occupied / ruled peacefully or not by another country, Cypriots always have the need of belonging somewhere, as until 10-15 years ago the Cypriot identity was "surpressed" due to this need of belonging. Cypriots in general lack of identity, but thank God things are changing since 10-15 years slowly but gradualy. The government of Cyprus (whichever that is) need to have a marketing plan about the Cypriot identity - to make Cypriot people (no matter of which political party they belong to) to be and feel Cypriot and proud of it!!!

There is still a long way to go, but there is no other way it is something inevidable that will just happen sooner or later!

PS: The turkish invation made things worst as when as a Cypriot you meet a foreigner and he asks you "where you come from" and you say "Cyprus", the next question is always "which cyprus" and you have to say Greek-Cypriot so that they understand!

[kimon07]

Off the subject a bit but, a couple of questions;

1. What is wrong with being Cypriot, why do you want to be Greek? That has always puzzled me!

We have been GREEK Cypriots i.e., of Greek descent, since the beginning of history.

2. In the same context as Cypriots being the ones who should determine their national loyalty, how does the ‘panel’ feel about the residents of the Falkland Islands, wishing to be British but the Argentines are adamant that the Islands belong to them because they share the same continental shelf and Argentina is the nearest country.

Falklands are a different case. They had been an inhabited till about 1600? Their history of discovery and conquest goes back to just around 1700?. The Greek Cypriots are indigenous Greeks of Cyprus since at least 1300 BC

Whose claim is the most just/valid, the Islanders or the Argentines?

I would say those who were the first to discover, inhabit and develop them. In any event, the dispute between Britain and Argentine is mainly economic and geostrategic. geopolitical.

[Viewpoint]

Viva la Enosis with Turkey.

We are the two sides of the same coin.

Good to see you realized that your own demands are what we demand for ourselves with our motherland. Soo what you despise is in actual fact what you caused yourself by demanding enosis.

[kurupetos]

Viva la Enosis with Turkey.

We are the two sides of the same coin.

Good to see you realized that your own demands are what we demand for ourselves with our motherland. Soo what you despise is in actual fact what you caused yourself by demanding enosis.

You are just a pest. Sooner or later we will extinguish you.

[GreekIslandGirl]

Viva la Enosis with Turkey.

We are the two sides of the same coin.

Good to see you realized that your own demands are what we demand for ourselves with our motherland. Soo what you despise is in actual fact what you caused yourself by demanding enosis.

Only one of us has a legitimate right. You just copy.

[Piratis]

1. What is wrong with being Cypriot, why do you want to be Greek? That has always puzzled me!

Nothing wrong at all. We are 100% Cypriot. Being Greek doesn't make us any less Cypriot. The same way that most Athenians or Cretans are Greek, or most Londoners are English (not talking about the recent immigrants), most Cypriots are Greek. There is nothing wrong or strange with this. On the contrary if you are Cretan, or Athenian or Cypriot, then chances are that you are also Greek (ethnic minorities exist everywhere of course).

What confuses some people is that Cyprus is a separate state. What these people don't know (or choose to ignore) is that Cyprus became a separate state because this is what served the interests of some foreigners, not because Cypriots wanted a separate state. Crete, Rhodes and many more Greek islands and territories gradually united with the Greek State to form a bigger Greece. "Enosis" was nothing unique to Cyprus, but was the common desire of all Greeks to liberate themselves from foreign oppressors and unite in a single Greek Republic.

2. In the same context as Cypriots being the ones who should determine their national loyalty, how does the ‘panel’ feel about the residents of the Falkland Islands, wishing to be British but the Argentines are adamant that the Islands belong to them because they share the same continental shelf and Argentina is the nearest country.

Whose claim is the most just/valid, the Islanders or the Argentines?

I don't know much about the history of Falklands, but if the British inhabited the islands before the Argentines and the majority of the local population wish to be British, then the Argentines can have no valid claim. The native population (not foreign countries, foreign armies or foreign settlers) should be free to decide what to do with their own territory. They can choose to have it as a separate country or they can choose to be part of another country of their own choice.

But there is no talk about enosis today. The whole point of different territories uniting into larger countries is to have more power so to be better able to defend themselves. The damage to Cyprus has already been done, and enosis today would offer no benefit.

[Nikitas]

Enosis when it was first expressed, concerned Cyprus as a British colony being ceded to Greece.

After independence it could only mean the joining of two equal entities, each having something worthwhile to contribute to the union. That ofcourse was anathema (in its English and Greek sense) to the "patriots". Some Greeks found the notion that the peasants who spoke with a funny accent had anything worthwhile to contribute to Greece totally ridiculous. Most still do. Well, back then Cyprus was developing fast and soon it ranked 2nd in the world in telecommunications, had a faster GDP growth than Greece, an incomparably better civil administration, a superior social welfare system. Those contributions were regarded as irrelevant, in other words Enosis post 1960 would mean erasing all the positives in Cyprus and importing the system which led Greece to the shithole it is today.

After the EU accession Enosis has become totally irrelevant. Both nations are linked in ways that might be closer than the union envisaged in the 50s or the 60s. Yet each is free to pursue its own development at its own pace. We know which one is doing better.

As far as the original notion of Enosis, ie takeover, is concerned, we should ask our TC compatriots to tell us their first hand experiences following Enosis with Turkey.

[repulsewarrior]

Viva la Enosis with Turkey.

...indeed, Cyprus and Turkey need to be allied, joined in a common cause. if the EU is a great experiment toward lasting peace, it is Turkey where a frontier is best established, so too Cyprus. enosis, as OP said, is not a bad word.

...your point is not well taken, perhaps, although it is ironically food for thought. "Greekness" (looking West) is taken as the Democratic Value where as Citizens we are equally involved in bettering our lives as a whole. "Turkishness" (looking East), i take to mean the Ottomans, who sucked the life out of the glorious Arabic civilization, and all its Peoples, not unlike their work ies stin poli. certainly modern Turkey is not the ideal of Ataturk, it is the Kemalists who see people as Turkish from their "Turkishness", that fails this great State to benefit their Nation.

...as i've said many times before vp, and i hope you think about it, this is not a Greek/Turkish issue, it is a not a "Greek"/"Turkish" issue either, it is a "Greek", "Turkish"/ Greek, Turkish issue.

we, being the vanguard vp, that is to say as a Citizen of the World, should act accordingly.

[Nikitas]

VP,

"Viva la Enosis with Turkey"

Now take that comment VP and put it next to the thousands of times you have accused GC fanatics of "wanting to gift the island to Greece". This is the Turkish cynicism I have posted about. When it suits you, it is OK, when it does not suit you then all kinds of sophistry and rationalisations are invoked.

Enjoy your Enosis, I hope they shove it to you to completion.

[Robin Hood]

Geot, kimon07 and Piratis,

Thank you all for a very rational, level headed and honest reply. I have to admit the questions I asked were obviously loaded because I wanted to know how a Cypriot would justify being Greek, with an affinity for Greece and (as I had wrongly assumed ) at the same time would justify throwing the British Colonials off the Falkland Islands. Your replies have restored my faith in my fellow man.

Geot; I think your explanation of the reason for being ‘Greek’ is very rational and for me more understandable than an explanation of being Greek by decent, as proposed by Kimon07. It certainly makes more sense to a foreigner like me.

I seem to remember that during the Clerides era, an anthropological survey was done that came to the conclusion that the Cypriots origins were in fact more Middle Eastern than Greek. This is not a dig at Cypriots being ‘Arab’ because on a parallel with the Brit’s, we are of mainly French origin (Anglo Saxons and Norman) with many other genes in there as well and would resent being referred to as ‘Frog’s’!!!! But like Greek Cypriots the English are English in language, custom and culture, the rest of the UK still keep their own customs and cultures, but to a great extent the native languages, although they still exist, are not generally in common usage.

We are not as religiously ‘faithful’ as those of the Orthodox Greek Church but rather pay lip service to the Faith at weddings, Christenings and funerals ....... that is if we can’t get out of it. So the religious side has, in recent years certainly, had a less significant influence on the Brit culture. I might add, although I am in no way religious, very much leading to a lowering of standards in British society on almost every aspect of daily life. The ‘family’ element that made the Cyprus, I remember when I came hereto live in the early 90’s, sadly seems to be heading in the same direction.

Whilst you guys are proud to be Greek, I can honestly say when you look at the Colonial History of the British, there is not a lot to be proud of. But, I have always felt that Cypriots do not differentiate between the British (English) as a people and the British Monarchical/political structure of the past. I think we have now been replaced by an even more pervasive colonial power, as seen in the ever expanding US Empire. I feel they may be a bit more difficult to unseat?

I hope that as time progresses, the Cypriots do present them selves as a patriotic race that displays loyalty and respect for themselves as Cypriots, with their own National Anthem and more inclination to fly the Cypriot flag, rather than the Greek flag but at the same time remain proud of their cultural origins.

Another question: If the talks with the Turkish Cypriots do not result in a united Cyprus, by what ever means, would this not be the time for a new national anthem (written by GC’s) and a new flag, again designed by Cypriots; as showing the outline of Cyprus would no longer be representative of the New Cyprus?

As for the Falkland’s, the second part of my loaded question ............. all three of you passed with flying colours, very measured and sensible explanations and not a single insult!